A plea on behalf of judges........... (quite long)

[killikyle]

Dear All,

I don't post much on here (don't even have time to lurk very often either), but, having received a rather disturbing message from a friend last night, I felt the need to put fingers to keyboard........

The friend in question is an experienced judge who also trains and has competed to a decent level in Eventing, Showjumping and Dressage - basically she knows what she's talking about....... She also rehabilitates/reschools so-called "problem horses" (a phrase she hates). In a nutshell, a really decent person who's aim is to "give back" to horse sport.

I am at a loss to understand why, therefore, certain competitors and their connections think it's perfectly acceptable to verbally abuse her and other officials at shows - at length.................

In the 20 odd years we have both been judging (in different disciplines) , we have been subjected to numerous threats, verbal abuse and, in my friend's case, even had a car vandalised! This is unacceptable on every level. Unfortunately, this behaviour seems to be on the increase.

We, as judges, are not perfect (and some are less perfect than others), but, just because you, as competitors, do not agree with a decision, does not necessarily mean that it's wrong. In a lot of cases we do actually empathise with you if your horse isn't going well - we've been there, and know how frustrating it can be. However, may I point out that competition rules are there for a reason and judges HAVE to apply them. This does not mean that we are power crazy maniacs, just that we have responsibilities as judges.

So please, if you think you have been treated unfairly, take a breath before approaching the judge. They (we) do actually deserve to be treated with a bit of respect - and believe me, you are far more likely to receive an understanding response if you don't question our sanity, skills, vision, hearing or suggest that we are dependant on noxious chemicals (yes, this has all happened). Do we really have to think about engaging security to prevent people accosting and abusing us - I hope not........

Don't get me wrong, the majority of people who attend shows are lovely - they get on with the job whether having a good day or bad (and some even thank you at the end of the day!). It is the minority who will drive the GOOD judges out of sport - the bad ones neither apply the rules appropriately nor seem to care..........

I don't actually expect responses to this, just wanted to make the decent folks of HHO realise that this DOES go on in your sport and it needs to be stopped.

Regards, killikyle.

 

[Rosiefan]

How sad that you've had to post this. I'm pleased to hear it's a minority but what an unpleasant one. I suppose the people who won't accept the judge's opinion are used to getting their own way if they use bully-boy tactics but if it was in my power, I'd ban them from ever competing again.
Please don't give up - the rest of us may mutter under our breath (or even on here) but we're very grateful for what you do - honest .

 

[OneInAMillion]

I know from personal experience what this is like. Not quite to the difficulties you have had but the main one that comes to mind is jump judging (BE and unaff). Usually when you have a combination and the horse runs out quite obviously yet the rider tells you it was completely intended or when a rider crosses tracks and you've seen it easily (I know not always easy to tell when riding) but they completely disagree.

I know eventing is a business to many people but what they need to remember is that eventing completely relies on volunteers. If you took away every single volunteer you would have no event. In my eyes many riders could do with realising that and many of them could try and help out themselves sometimes to not only realise what goes on behind the scenes but how much hard work goes on

 

[Mince Pie]

Can you not automatically eliminate them? And ban the persistent ones from the venue?

 

[CHH]

Gosh that is just terrible to read, what is wrong with people?

I think the sportsmanship has gone in exchange for people 'needing' to make a living, and this is now a commercial pressure.

I do not envy the job of the judge, and full salute to you for continuing, I am so shocked that car is vandalised and worse!

Saying that it is perhaps just another sad reflection of the lack of respect and decency the Uk seems to have descended into.

I agree with a ban for those who behave inappropriately to a judge, afterall they are entering a competition to be judged - NOT do the judging themselves, and in entering are agreeing to the rules - of which THE JUDGES decision is final.
That seems to being tranlated into 'negotiate until you get your own way'

Perhaps the various governing bodies could bring some sort of ban system into place, abit like football.
Financially hit them too, seems this is now such a commerical world.

I hope you and your friend and all the other judges who stand up for fair and just keep at it, I am sure you have the support of the many great people on here and in the equine world.

 

[mystiandsunny]

Sorry to hear that people are that rude and unpleasant!

 

[PorkChop]

Hear, Hear

Ultimately my feeling is if you do not want to be judged, along guidelines, but in essence one persons thoughts of your performance of a few minutes, then you shouldn't compete.

 

[wench]

I posted about the rudeness of people at draycott when I was scoreboard writing, I couldn't believe the rudeness of them.

Another thing that bugged me was the results were in a marquee with a big "no dogs" sign on the front - and yet people still thought they were entitled to take theirs in.

 

[TarrSteps]

C'est la vie, I'm afraid. Some people are appreciative, most really don't give it much thought, a few are, well, pricks. If you want to be charitable you can put it down to the stress of competition but rudeness is rudeness if you ask me.

I once got "attacked" by a father as I walked out of the ring, yelling about how I anyone could see his daughter was the best rider blah blah blah. When he paused for breath I agreed she rode beautifully but had made two very serious errors so I simply could not place her about possibly less skilled riders. He looked like he'd swallowed a bee . . . then he turned on his daughter, "You made me look like a fool! Did you know you'd made those mistakes??" Charming. At least I got to walk away from the man, imagine what is was like being his kid. :rollseyes:

Personally, at small/quiet UA shows I actively encourage people to come and ask questions if there is time. I'd much rather that than have them go away not understanding why I made the decisions I did. I know this isn't possible or desirable at larger shows but hopefully by that point people have a bit more knowledge and perspective.

I know it's frustrating to not get the score you think you deserve but, quite frankly, it goes both ways and I have yet to see anyone return a ribbon because they didn't think they deserved it. At the end of your life, you have the right number of ribbons, you just don't always have them for the right things.

And as a coach of mine was fond of saying, the only way to make a bit more sure is to be SO good no one can deny you.

I think it's even more interesting here where judges don't get paid. (It generally pays well in North America) Presumably people do it because they're keen to give back (or megalomaniacs . . . ). I do wonder how many people who complain regularly have tried it themselves.

 

[charlie76]

I have taken to banning rude people from our shows as it gets worse and worse. We also will not listen to people being abusive or complaining without a £20 deposit to go with the complaint.
We (myself and the secretary) were once verbally abused for about 15 minutes following the result of a fun class called 'horse with the longest tail'. They were raging that the horse that won was bigger than their childs pony therefore was bound to have the longest tail! Honestly, they were horrid.
In the end we returned their entry fee and asked them to leave.

 

[Britestar]

I have taken to banning rude people from our shows as it gets worse and worse. We also will not listen to people being abusive or complaining without a £20 deposit to go with the complaint.
.

Our Club was forced to do this in the last 12 months as well. A tirade of abuse from a mother and her child, with a couple of 'cronies' joining in. (although one must have seen the error of her ways, and subsequently removed herself from the area, and then came to help us clear up). They were sent a letter saying they were no longer welcome at any Club shows.

It then became apparent that they had used this behaviour at other shows and we got a few emails from other venues congraulating us on our 'bravery' for banning them.

 

[susie2193]

As a Show Jump judge I do a lot of BS and unaffiliated, and always try to apply the rules in a fair way. i.e. yesterday someone at an unaff show went before the bell, it didn't affect the result, so we let them continue but at the end of the round asked them to come to the box and explained what they had done. Everyone happy, and that person won't make the same mistake again.

I have also been verbally abused, told I didn't know the rules etc. for eliminating people for using illegal tack, jumping the wrong fence and the one that really gets me is taking out a temper on their pony.

We are approachable and if someone comes into the box asking why they have been eliminated, given faults etc. we are more than happy to explain, and on occasion admit we made a mistake. If someone comes in shouting and being abusive it puts everyones backs up and they are unlikely to get anywhere.

 

[Harrie123]

You do have to ask yourselves why these people even bother to compete, I for one wish they didn’t. Riding is such a lovely sport it is a real shame people feel the need to ruin it for others, do they not realise that without judges there would be no competition for them to go to?

 

[soulfull]

I agree with others it is a disgrace that people trying to help and put back into the sport are treated this way!

I think some of it is general standards and some of it is wrongly that people put so much money into their horses then entry fees they somehow think it is their given right to rant and rave if it doesn't go their way.

Most of us do it for fun and it stops being fun when people behave like this.

Those that do it for a living know when they go into the sport what it is like and should go into if if they don't accept the rule 'judges decision is final'

 

[charlie76]

We get abuse for all sorts.
some one was eliminated for outside assistance not so long ago, three jump judges saw the person have outside assistance but they still were rude ( inc 2 following emails) and told us our jump judges were useless!
I got abuse, as the starter, for not allowing some one to go xc when they turned up 20 mins after the class had finished inc me holding the class and sending some one to find them!
Yesterday I was abused for eliminating 7 people who did not walk the course correctly and jumped the wrong fence!
I have been abused for not allowing someone to continue after falling off SJ
Abused for not giving some one a clear round rosette even though the person did not go clear. They jumped all the fences, just not the first time and not in the right order!
Abused for the jumps being too small, too big, too wide, not wide enough
Abused for the ground being too hard and too muddy
Abused for asking some one to move their screaming pony from the entrance of the dressage arena whilst some one was attempting to do their test.
Abuse because of an elimination due to a rider doing a dressage test and forgetting to take the boots off.
Oh and abuse for dressing the SJ wings!
The list is endless, you start to wonder why you bother!

 

[diggerbez]

oh my god- your friend had her car vandalised?? thats dreadful! i don't understand why people need to be rude to judges...fair enough sometimes people can come across a bit short when they are stressed but to be outright abusive is terrible....

 

[Sarah_Jane]

I do think the affiliated bodies be it BE, BD, BS or showing do need to take a harder stance on this and set an example. If one of their members carries out such abuse it should be stamped on firmly and if it is done twice a serious 6 month or more ban put in place with publicity so it set a mark to all affiliated and unaffiliated.

In a riding club pony club type situation again share information with others and put a ban in place, do this a few times and set an example and people will be more careful. It is totally unacceptable.

 

[Perissa]

I do quite a lot of judging at local and county level and the stories I could tell you would make you wonder why on earth anyone would ever stand in a field all day in the blazing sun or pouring rain, often for lunch and petrol money only.

As always it is the miniority that spoil it by their unsportsmanlike behaviour and bad mannors.

And, as controversial as it may be it is usually children, or parents of the child. I now will not judge childrens rings. Its a brave judge that does nowadays.

Because I also compete a variety of different breeds from local up to International Level I know what it is like from both angles. I took my miniature to a show yesterday. He did very well in one class, so I was as pleased as punch. He did not do well in the second class (different judge), did I make a fuss NO, I simply did not go in for the 3 rd class under that judge again. Yes I know I lost my money but what was the point when I knew the judge didn't like my pony. Besides all the comments about my pony from outside the ring, including from strangers more than made up for his bad placing.

I often read the comments on here about bad judging and often the person complaining is oblivious to their own failings. It is only that person's opinion on that day, you may not agree with it but you should accept it on the chin, have a laugh if you want and walk away. Save your money, you don't have to show under them again.

It is amazing how many people do not wear the correct clothes, do not turn their horse/pony out correctly or simply they are not the correct type for that class.

Examples ( and dependant on schedule wording)
Just because you have a horse or pony and you ride it does NOT mean it is a RIDING Horse or Pony. A Riding Horse or Pony is a TYPE - NOT just a horse or pony that is ridden. If you take a Shetland into a Riding Pony class and do a perfect show you will still be last because you should not be in that class.

No you cannot take your Friesian/Iberian/Part Bred into a Mountain and Moorland class.

A New Forest cross Welsh is NOT a Mountain and Moorland Pony.

Wearing a black jacket and white jods is almost always incorrect dress for all showing classes regardless of what they are.

You don't have to have perfect tack but it MUST FIT and be fit for purpose.

 

[pinktiger]

that is totally disgusting and if what is stated is right should be in the hands of the police!!!!!!!! i honestly think that has gone too far for a plea on HHO as those sort of people have the moral fiber of a lump of concrete so is a waste of time tryin to apeal to their morals!! imo!!

We as competitors make mistakes as do the judges(have seen a couple of corkers recently, it does go on)!!!, but there are correct channels to deal with this, one sure way NOT deal with it is to abuse a judge verbally or criminally!!!! Totally dememnted disgusting and criminal!!!!

 

[mik]

I think it is disrespectful behaviour and should be penalised. However, I can't help thinking that you guys would have kittens if you came to local area level competitions here in Spain.

 

[Baggybreeches]

We (myself and the secretary) were once verbally abused for about 15 minutes following the result of a fun class called 'horse with the longest tail'. They were raging that the horse that won was bigger than their childs pony therefore was bound to have the longest tail!

Sorry but I would have been so busy laughing at them I doubt I would be able to speak!

I am about to embark on my affiliated showing judging accredition, I have a broad spectrum of knowledge, I certainly don't know everything, but I can qualify my opinions, and that is what showing is. It is the judges opinion. When you pay you entry fee you agree to be bound by the judge's decision and in the vast majority of cases they have given up very many hours to get to be judges and they are usually widely respected experts who will if you approach them in the right way be happy to give you feedback on what you could do better.