A question about nosebands...

vallin

vallin

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Am starting to do a bit more hacking with French which invariably leads to increased excitement when we hit grass (note: we very rarely canter on grass, just the feel of it is exciting apparently :rolleyes: ) and am considering having a 'hacking' noseband to give me a touch more control. She is generally perfectly controllable in the current snaffle and cavesson but am just thinking that something that gives a bit of nasal pressure may reduce the amount of pulling (she responds very well to a rope round the nose if she's got herself in a tizz when being lead in hand and would rather keep her in the snaffle). So am thinking of trying one of the below:

-Kineton noseband
-Australian noseband
-Worcester noseband
-Rope noseband (without flash)

Any thought?
TIA :)
 
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I'd go with a kineton - some are adjustable on the nose so you can alter the nose/bar pressure to suit your horse
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
Ditto the drop. The drop wouldn't really help with keeping the mouth shut (if fitted correctly, it's looser than a flash!), but I think it would help with control.
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Probably being dense, but how? It doesn't affect the action of the bit or change it terms of pressure unless the horse either crosses or opens its jaw surely?

Should probably add, my understanding of a drop is that it's the equivalent of a well fitted flash...
 
I have tried a kineton before, without much success, but I know a couple of people that rate them.

I would personally try a combination bit, for example the myler combination, however not great if you are wanting to ride her into a contact continually.

I think the point the others are making is that by closing a horses mouth slightly it allows the bit to work in the correct way and therefore gives you more control. But I agree there is no nose pressure with a drop noseband.
 
Friend of mine swears by her kineton. Supposed to only come into action when pressure is applied to the bit and distributes it over the nose as well as the bars. Depends I suppose on how well your horse responds to nose pressure and whether they are likely to respect it or panic?
 
Vallin, a correctly-fitted drop sit much lower than a flash. The pressure points of a drop noseband are on the bony parts of the nose - much lower than a grackle or cavesson or flash.
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
Vallin, a correctly-fitted drop sit much lower than a flash. The pressure points of a drop noseband are on the bony parts of the nose - much lower than a grackle or cavesson or flash.
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Ah fair enough, good point, hadn't really thought about the placement, more the action IYSWIM :rolleyes: Hmm, maybe I'll see if I can pick a drop and a kineton up cheaply and play around.

Just one last (dense) questions. Am I right in thinking that with a drop the pressure on the nose would be constantly the same, though presumably change the action of the bit?

Sorry! Trying to understand the mechanics :o
 
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Interestingly, just been reading about nosebands on Sustainable Dressage, the drop and the kineton actually have a very similar action.
[Talking about the Kineton] "The regular, especially the drop noseband, has the same effect on the head of the horse, only, it applies its pressure via the lower jaw (which is pulled back and pulls the cavesson back which pulls on the nose)."
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Hmmm.
 
The kineton acts on the nose and the metal loops squeeze the sides of the mouth when pressure is applied to the reins. It also keeps the bit high towards the roof of the mouth so the joint is more likely to press into it. It cannot put pressure on the lower jaw as it goes nowhere near it! It is known to be quite severe.
A drop or mexican noseband, a slightly stronger snaffle or a Pelham would be a nicer alternative.
 
There is another school of thought though that some horses respond positively to a kineton because it dissipates some of the pressure on to the nose and steadies the bit in the mouth, actually making it LESS severe. A tricky one. And unlikely ever to be solved. ;) That said, some horses respond very well to them, others not so much or negatively. It's a useful piece of kit but I'm not sure I'd try it as a first response in a horse that wasn't doing anything radical.

I quite like combination bridles but that's a very good point, they are NOT designed for riding on a "dressage" contact. It might be worth getting one on trial it depends on how you'll want to ride the horse while you're out and about.

I've just had a horse doing hacking rehab for a history of getting seriously wound up out hacking and the ticket for him has been a sidepull hackamore. He's been wearing mine with the lariat rope noseband wrapped but his owner has just bought him one we put a sheepskin cover on to stop it rubbing. I think he's even better in this get up - maybe it has a bit more "bite" to it than a padded wrap but I also think it acts as a bit of a shadow roll and makes him keep his attention on the ground. There are lots of bitless options and I know "competition" people dismiss them out of hand but there's a good reason you see them often on endurance and hard core trail riding horses.

I'm a big fan of drops for schooling but oddly, now I think about it, not so much for hacking! I can't even say why - probably my eventing background! If I were going to put a drop on a horse I'd probably just have it on for everything.

I'd also agree, a soft pelham, maybe with a leather curb, might be a good option, or a slightly different mouthpiece. It really depends on how much of a difference you want/need to make.
 
TarrSteps said:
There is another school of thought though that some horses respond positively to a kineton because it dissipates some of the pressure on to the nose and steadies the bit in the mouth, actually making it LESS severe. A tricky one. And unlikely ever to be solved. ;) That said, some horses respond very well to them, others not so much or negatively. It's a useful piece of kit but I'm not sure I'd try it as a first response in a horse that wasn't doing anything radical.

I quite like combination bridles but that's a very good point, they are NOT designed for riding on a "dressage" contact. It might be worth getting one on trial it depends on how you'll want to ride the horse while you're out and about.

I've just had a horse doing hacking rehab for a history of getting seriously wound up out hacking and the ticket for him has been a sidepull hackamore. He's been wearing mine with the lariat rope noseband wrapped but his owner has just bought him one we put a sheepskin cover on to stop it rubbing. I think he's even better in this get up - maybe it has a bit more "bite" to it than a padded wrap but I also think it acts as a bit of a shadow roll and makes him keep his attention on the ground. There are lots of bitless options and I know "competition" people dismiss them out of hand but there's a good reason you see them often on endurance and hard core trail riding horses.

I'm a big fan of drops for schooling but oddly, now I think about it, not so much for hacking! I can't even say why - probably my eventing background! If I were going to put a drop on a horse I'd probably just have it on for everything.

I'd also agree, a soft pelham, maybe with a leather curb, might be a good option, or a slightly different mouthpiece. It really depends on how much of a difference you want/need to make.
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Don't you think that the severity or otherwise of all these things depends on how they are used? Indeed, a kineton can be mild but requires proper riding, a secure seat and good hands to be as such. The rider losing balance and coming up against the rein can make it less than pleasant for the horse.
 
From my experience a rope noseband is particularly good if the horse tosses it's head upwards as it comes against the rope but momentarily rather than constant like a drop. Hope this helps. C
 
Going rather against the grain here, but if she's chucking her head up & about when her hooves touch grass, & that's making you want more control, I'd put a looseish elasticated standing martingale on... Nothing to object to mouth-wise, & has no effect at all unless she chucks her head up.
Totally inapplicable advice if she's not doing that though!
 
oldvic said:
Don't you think that the severity or otherwise of all these things depends on how they are used? Indeed, a kineton can be mild but requires proper riding, a secure seat and good hands to be as such. The rider losing balance and coming up against the rein can make it less than pleasant for the horse.
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As with all things, alas. :)

I saw one used on a racehorse not that long ago which had been locking its neck and bogging off across the heath. It was at a rehab yard when I saw it and we couldn't make it run off but when its regular lad came to ride it, it was pretty clear what at least part of the problem was! :eek: We put a kineton on and apparently all was solved! I have no idea how much was the change in action, how much was the lad thinking he had more control and then not muscling the horse so much, and how much was the horse actually being a bit cowed by the bit. I do think these things are often more complicate - but weirdly more simple - than people like to think!

Combination bridles are similar - used well, they can dissipate pressure and possibly give the horse a signal it's "happier" about. Used badly they are instruments of torture! Leverage is a big personal issue of mine because many people seem to think it makes horses "lighter" when actually it makes riders exponentially stronger. That's kind of the point! So yes, that can be very helpful and actually "kinder" as the rider then rides more sympathetically (we hope!) but there seems to me a kind of dishonestly about denying that really, it's about strength.

Anyhoooo . . . the OPs horse doesn't really sound like a kineton case to me. But then I have to see things to diagnose them. Sometimes a horse can be displaying similar behaviours but the individual solutions can be quite different!

How is the horse getting strong? Is he pulling down? Crossing his jaw? Fixing his neck? If it's just a case that he's getting a bit fizzy a bigger bit may not be the answer and, in fact, might make the situation worse. If a horse "needs" to go (as opposed to one that's just being rude) then shutting the front door more firmly MIGHT cause the horse to become more anxious/frustrated and even more reactive. Sometimes you don't know until you try!

Reading through, it seems we all have different ideas of what they OPs horse is doing! I took it to mean the horse is strong and wanting to go faster than the rider wants, k took it to mean she's chucking her head and trying to get free! What you use will depend a lot on the effect you want to get. If it really is just a slightly "sharper" reaction then a drop or grackle, if that doesn't work, a slightly sharper bit.
 
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oldvic said:
Don't you think that the severity or otherwise of all these things depends on how they are used? Indeed, a kineton can be mild but requires proper riding, a secure seat and good hands to be as such. The rider losing balance and coming up against the rein can make it less than pleasant for the horse.
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Also on this note, the horse I mentioned that's wearing the sidepull is doing better in it precisely because it "smooths" the aid out and he is LESS reactive. So you can take a bit of a pull if he gets quick and he doesn't panic and drop the bit or feel hemmed in and try to fight it. This is particularly true with his owner who is a good rider but really just wants to hack about and not worry too much. In the hackamore if he trips and holds the hand for a minute, or the aid is slightly stronger than he deems acceptable, it's not a big deal and he recovers much faster. The flip side is he's not as feather light the rest of the time and his owner has had to get used to that. But, by the same token, his extreme reactiveness trained her to stay away from him - in this bridle she was surprised by how much of a pull she could take but also by how calmly he accepted it.

I think bits/bridles are part of an organic system of "horse + bit + rider + situation". What works for one rider on one horse won't necessarily work for another rider on the same horse and so on.
 
Thanks for all the responses :) I think TarrSteps said it right when what I want is a slightly 'sharper' response without changing the bit. She doesn't chuck her head about, just starts to pull a bit. I'm mainly thinking about changing the nose band as whilst she is fine to hold in that bit but can just get a bit gobby and obbinionated and I'd rather put a bit of pressure on her nose and get an immediate response, rather than her leaning on my hands IYSWIM.
 
Short answer, if she's opening her mouth a noseband change should help. But my general experience is that many horses are actually more sensitive without a noseband - not sure the inverse is true though! I'd say try a drop.

It also depends on how much hacking you want to do. I think if you're hacking for enjoyment it's important the horse should be relaxed and comfortable, especially if you're out for any time. That would steer me away from anything tight and also something like a kineton that, in my experience, can be hard to fit well and can rub.
 
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