A question about producing youngsters

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Bossanova

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Lots of recent posts have been bugging me!
One area particular is that of the speed with which a young horse should be bought on. Yes I know that every horse is different etc etc but in general, how quickly would you expect a young horse to start doing things.
For example, after it has been backed, can walk and trot off the lunge with reasonable steering, how long before you'd teach it to canter and jump?
Once it's popping small fences at home, what sort of timescale would you expect them to get out competing in. And how quickly do you aim to progress once you start competing??

I'm full of questions as you can see!! Just curious as I hate pfaffing around and I'm a get-out-there-and-give-it-a-go type of person. Moon is the first horse that I've been able to make all the decisions for and with her I just cracked on and did it. I dont think I've ruined her....yet
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Well I dont advocate rushing them, would never ask something of a horse if I didnt think it was ready to do it but I think sometimes people over-cook the basic stages when the horse could prob move on?
 
i like a youngster to be backed at three in at least walk and trot, maybe canter and a small jump before being turned away for a break.
then at four go out and do a few shows and see a few things.

moon is a complete credit to you ,wish you were closer as i wouldn't hesitate in bending your arm to back miri for me
 
i think it all depends on the horse, some 4yo's can be at the same stage of training as 6yos, depending on previous work, i am a bit like you and like to give things ago, but i have to feel the horse is ready
xx
 
Lol, thankyou!
Yes thats prob how I'd do it too in an ideal world, maybe ask some brave strong person to do some in-hand showing too
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Ha yes, completely agree with you! Well rough timescale for a normal, not too difficult horse for me is couple of weeks lunging, long reining, general education from ground, lay over walk/trot on lunge for few days if me and horse happy off lunge, cantering bout second week of riding, bit of pole work etc and get it out hacking asap. I feel happier if ive cantered in the school before hacking, just in case but i know people who do first canter out and forward with another horse.

I ideal world would get to this stage then turn away before thinking about competeing, depends on age, temperament, whose horse it is etc I dont know how but they seem to learn loads when they are turned away!!
 
I think if the horse is happy keep going. If it was popping fences at home OK I would take it to a show straight away. If it was happy doing that a few times I would affliate.
 
I do agree but then how can you overcook a horse with hacking or a little bit of hunting and light schooling, I wouldn't want a 4y.o doing much more, though Rhi will be a different kettle of fish, she'll hopefully do BYEH and Pavo so I'm a hypocrite
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A real old fashioned horseman once told me, start a 3y.o in the spring of its 3rd year (meaning mouth/lunge/long rein/back) turn it away all summer, bring it up in September and just hack it all winter, all over the place, fields, tracks, roads, woods, he will then do anything you ask the following spring. The ones I've had time to do that way have never put a foot wrong.
 
I've posted today re my 4yo first SJ Rossette. This is what I've done with him.
I bought him in July from his breeder (He'd grown to big for them) and he'd been broken 6 weeks.
I then did a mixture of hacking out, schooling (for 20 to 30 mins) The odd jumping lesson- Grids & poles. He went to our RC camp in august (3 nights) We hacked the first day, SJ grids 2nd Day, his first XC schooling on day 3 & SJ course on day 4. All very small & inviting.
Twice in October he went to NH and did the clear round, to do his first course & first experience of warm up. He also did his first walk/trot dressage test.
In november he went to his first proper SJ show & did the 2'6". He also did another walk/trot dressage test.
Today he's gone unaffl SJ again & done 2 classes.
He'll now not go out again until the new year & will spend to next few weeks hacking & the odd schooling session.
Already he love going out in the lorry. He drags me up the ramp!!!
I'm trying to get him out to see things but also make things fun for him.
I think as long as they are strong enough & you don't ask too much too soon, it's all part of their all round education.
 
Bit of a different discipline but ill give it a go.
When backing a horse I fully expect to walk and trot up the road and back the first day. My opinion is that if the groundwork is done properly, a horse will never play up when you get on. They are all well used to traffic so no worries there, and it is basically 1/2 mile and back. I generally get a leg up, lean across for a few strides, put leg over, slowly put weight back, put leg on, leader to unclip rope and slowly walks away until I am by myself. Of course there are always exceptions - Cheekster was leant over for a month, then ridden lay on the neck for a month!
As for cantering, there are 2 types. The one type, shall we say 'boyos', I make canter the next day - if you wait too long they will get too much confidence and have a go. The other type, shall we say 'nervies', I will wait with for 2/3 weeks and let them fall into canter by themselves. They are the other way - need the confidence not to have a go. Halfway up my lane there is a bridleway, grass with a tall hedge either side for about 3 furlongs. This is where every horse has its first canter, after plodding up the road for a bit.
Jumping wise, I usually pop mine at least over poles on the floor when lungeing and long reining. Its helps a lot as to getting them to use themselves under saddle, and not react to it in any way. Most of mine will have popped barrells/tyres/poles by the time they are backed. That is not to say they are overjumped, generally one every few days.
First few weeks are always spent just playing about. When a horse can go everywhere I want by itself (I never use a lead), main road/gallop/bridelways/open fields, I start doing a few canters up the gallop. I guess that would be the same as to other disciplines starting work in the school (that is certainly what I would do). When a horse can do a couple of canters up the gallop, no probs/shies and taking me forwards, I start working upsides another horse.
Very rarely will a horse go straight onto racing, they will usually do 2 faster canters (generally just up to about a half speed over 4 furlongs) and then go out in the field for 2-6 months.
 
Well we have a 4yr old which we were playing with. He was lunged/longreined and did a small jump then backed at 3 walked/trotted/cantered then turned away. Brought back at 4 and did alot of lunging to get him balanced (my job) he was ridden for about 4 months in walk/trot/canter before starting to jump small. Then did a few stort courses, about 4 fences. Started to jump bigger about 5 months as found it all very easy. Is now however having winter off as no rider. He would of, by now, been doing dressage and the odd little showjumping class. Then would start doing xc schooling and hunter trials next year may be a intro or two at the end of the year and start Intro-ing/pre-novice-ing in 2008, when he is 6.
 
I am keen that work in hand is done in spades. Once you have opened lines of communication I am on board and out on a hack within a couple of days. It all depends on th horse but I would expect to do as much hacking as possible and get the horse to go anywhere I tell it without a lead if at all possible.
Shows straight away, but then my youngsters all go out as foals anyway, so its no big deal. popping small logs & ditches asap, and playing XC asap as well, completely focussed ongetting them going forwards. Very little lunging and relatively little schoolwork with real babies.
I think the horse makes a difference. Sienna was backed and hacking out in a day. I would stay at polework with Deri, if she were mine till she starts working properly.
 
At the risk of sounding like a 'Monty is God' person, i just find they let you know how much they need to be doing.. if everything is going well and easy, then keep going as you are, adding new things in, on the way.. if you're having trouble doing something, then it's obviously not ready to move on/up to the next level..

They are all so different!!

The coloured horse in the pic under my name.. was broken in, hunted within a couple of weeks, then hunted for the rest of the winter (only about 8 days) NOT in jumping country, but on Exmoor.. he was then taught to jump, and within a couple of weeks of learning to jump, he was dragged off to his first BE intro (the first year intro was brought in, and it really was tiny).. he wasn't a quick learner at all, but what i'd call a real thick/stupid horse that would just do whatever you told him to do!! (didn't have alot of talent either).
Where as Squeaky, has a real brain in his head (and i think alot of talent) and he wont let you rush him.. if he doesn't understand something, he wont do it!!
 
I would say it depends entirely on each individual horse.
From backing to hacking we hack out alone after around three days.
After three weeks hacking we start to school them in the arena, but by then a lot of basic stuff has been learned on the road such as basic leg yeild, turns for gates etc.
My Welsh Cob was lunged and long reined for six weeks, a professional dressage rider who was staying with us got on him the first day and he was so balanced he cantered a figure of eight with a simple change! Other horses have taken several weeks to get a half decent canter.
CJ;s new horse Layla is exceptionally quick at learning, the only thing slowing her down is her limitations in muscle development, until she is strong enough to do more, we make haste slowly!
Others like Monty take months to educate because their brain is fighting you so much of the time.
Ours go jumping as soon as they will happily pop a X pole or two, we go indoors if possible as less distractions, and literally school round a 2' course at trot.
Once they will do aSJ course we hire a XC course, but again, they will have popped logs and ditches on hacks, forded the river and been through the super dupa water jump we now have in our garden...
The other thing is the rider. A rider like you or your sister who exudes confidence to the horse and has the mentality that, "Yes, you will jump!" makes a world of difference.
We do some un-affilliated courses to assess whether a horse will cope , Chocolate for instance will start at Pre-N because he has done three local HT over those courses. Jonty did the Nov/Int course effortlessly so will start with a Pre-No then move up immediately if she goes ok.
I don't think you can ever say what speed to go at, you need to look at horse ability and rider experience and capability.
 
a very interesting one....i posted something similar last re byeh.

we have started over from scratch with twiggy as although backed and in racing training we had NO idea what she had done whilst there so thought it better to play safe and take it slowly, after all shes three so whats the rush?! and so far seems to be paying dividends. Ive been on her 4 times now since we got her 2 weeks ago (damn my job wish i could pack it in!) and have gone from 're-backing' if you want to call it that to loose walking and trotting in the school with circles and transitions. I'm hopefully going to get her down the lane at some point this week if i can get time off from work.

Now i know some people will say thats not the way to do it with a horse thats been in training and knows these elementary things but this is my first one coming from that situation and so im taking it slowly - other youngsters i have brought on have done so at different speeds.

With regards to competing i'd probably only do a couple of local show jumping shows before taking the plunge and affiliating - the courses are just so much nicer!

we hope to have twigs ready for the byeh classes that are held in june and july close to us, but that said we'll see how it goes if shes ready shes ready, if not, no big deal. I'm not one for doing tonnnes with babies at first, i dont believe they are physically or mentally mature for it and would rather spend a bit too long on one level rather than moving up too soon and shattering either the horses confidence or yours. anyway....sorry for the ramble, i could talk about it all day!
 
I have a 3 yo who has been back in work for 8 weeks after his initial backing as a 2yo. I have had him for 4 of these weeks. 2 days after his 4th birthday in Feb he will do a prelin dressage test, the week after this, a local SJ comp (up to 2 ft)

After this he will go to 1 SJ and 1 dressage comp per month and hack and school at home, next winter he will hunt and I hope to do an Intro event when he turns 5.
 
I keep my horse on a dealers yard, who import horses from ireland, they are (as Severn Miles) old hunting types, and apply the exact same method (might do a bit of hunting as well in 3yo winter.) All the horses seem to make very nice horses, this way. But TBH I know no other way so couldnt really comment.

I tend to be a bit of a watch their legs freak aswell, but again I think this stems from the fact that Ive never owned a horse older than seven, so tend to be super conscious about soundness.
 
Well, firstly I will say I have never broken a horse in so what I say comes from the point at which a horse is already going on the flat in walk, trot and canter, and has seen a few coloured fences...

So, in SJ'ing terms, under BSJA rules, a 4yo will be expected to be jumping 1m tracks (no timed JO though...just steady DC's), a 5yo should be jumping 1.10m's (with a timed JO), and a 6yo jumping 1.20m's
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Well, firstly I will say I have never broken a horse in so what I say comes from the point at which a horse is already going on the flat in walk, trot and canter, and has seen a few coloured fences...

So, in SJ'ing terms, under BSJA rules, a 4yo will be expected to be jumping 1m tracks (no timed JO though...just steady DC's), a 5yo should be jumping 1.10m's (with a timed JO), and a 6yo jumping 1.20m's
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4yo's at Hickstead is 1.20, 5yo's is 1.25.
 
Blimey
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I was just talking about the 'ordinary' BSJA age classes
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I know they were the heights for the ones at Pyecombe earlier this year.
 
I am same as you Boss - I tend to push on. All our 4yos have hunted a season (not pushed hard)) and are expected to get on with it. In our PC team both my sister and I were on mature 5yos and had no problems going round PC area. With pros they do about 3/4 PN then move onto Novice. Realistically I have not got the same time/facilities/experience to put into a horse that a pro has so have to do a few more PN and wait a bit longer.
 
The ones Ive backed so far seem to have progressed pretty quickly, but you just have to take it as it comes. As a rough guide, from the time I get on their back for the first time to being off on our own is about a week. Then to have it walk, trotting and cantering would probably be about 2/3 weeks (depending on the horse of course!). When it began cantering happily, Id introduce polework and then basic (tiny) jumping pretty soon. So probably a month to start little jumps, then Id go to their first (very small) competition to trot round and from there tend to take them out most weekend to very small stuff. I take it very slowly jumping at competitions, I stay small for quite a while until their happy to move up. I never rush moving up heights.

Your horse will tell you how fast he wants to go. Just keep it calm and always happy!
 
I have never had anything younger than 4yo so most of the work has already been started but i usually go by the horse with regards to bringing them on.

My mare is such a quick learner and is so balanced for a 4yo that she is progressing a lot quicker than any of the other youngsters i have had. It took a year for my last mare to be able to jump comfortably round 2'6 but the mare i have now has just started jumping BN & Dic and she hasn't even been backed a year yet.
 
I'm by no means the voice of experience but i've put up with ALOT of stick about the way i've done things with Gov - to the extent that I moved yards a year ago.

I bought him when he was 3 1/2 (sold as a 5 year old...yeah...right) and he would walk, trot and canter but with no steering, balance or confidence - and no muscle at all. Obviously i've produced him for pleasure and don't feel under any pressure to get him performing so he spent the first year hacking out and working long and low in the school. After 6 months I took him out to his first dressage test - unfortuneatly I didn't choose the venue to well, in hindsight it was probably too buzzy but he seemed to cope reasonably all the same. The next summer was spent hacking back and forth to clear round jumping (he would have been 4).

The YO at the yard I was at at the time was constantly on my back about not 'pushing' him or doing enough with him. But mentally I know he would have broken down if I had done things the 'serious' way as we can now. He wasn't mentally there.

He's just turned 6 and happily working at Novice level at home and will jump a 1m course at home without any trouble. He's not had the outings I would have liked - 4 or 5 dressage tests (but he has achieved into the 70's in that time) and no jumping 'competitions'. But i'm hoping that we'll get the oppourtunity while i'm at uni as we won't require the military precision that is organising transport!
 
I am not one for hanging around and that goes really for whatever age they are. With real youngsters I tend to keep sessions short and give them regular breaks even if it is a week here and there.

Generally if they are confident doing something then it is time to move on to the next level. I had a 5 year old this year who wasn't ready to advance too quickly (he is thick) but eventually when things clicked he moved up quite quickly through BSJA and BE. Hopefully he will Novice BE next year in the late Spring and maybe even Intermediate in Autumn.

I don't win that many classes because I am always trying to move up and reach potential rather than totally perfecting the level I am at. None of my horses have ever thrown the towel in and I have enough help from experienced people who will tell me to step back if necessary.
 
I dont believe in faffing about and taking weeks or even months to get a horse going however my coloured came to me with a b*ggered back because he had been jumped and jumped and jumped as a 3/4 year old.... i found it hilarious that this horse couldnt balance to canter a lap of the school and cantering on lunge was out of the question, yet he had been jumping courses before this...

I dont think there is any problem bringing them on at a reasonable pace as long as they are ready for it and you ensure the basics is there first....

I have a 3 yo exracer coming to me tomorrow to do a bit of schooling with, she's been turned out the last 6 months so we will give her a day or two to settle then she will come straight into work, she will need fittening but as part of that walking out on the roads/common and going over poles/logs/barrels will be introduced as soon as possible - I know she has been sat on as she has raced so we'll get her used to our routine and just get on with it.....
 
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