A question for barefooters...

Pale Rider said:
I see where you are coming from, but taken all round I suspect horses had to work a lot harder for a living in the 5,000yrs plus of domestication prior to being shod. I think that the way we house and feed horses is more of a problem than the 'job' or 'work', we expect now. I see a parallel with what we have done to our children in the Western World with high fat high sugar diets and the obesety and other nutritional diseases.
Click to expand...

I would agree with that. Our two are in much harder work than the hunters and eventers on our yard, yet I'm sure it is nothing to horses that really had a job in days gone by.

Another prob like Pale rider says is the rubbish food advertised now. We always want to do the very best by our beloved horses so we buy the shiny 'because you love your horse' type feeds, which sadly are often not supplying what the horse needs without the crap! Alot of horse feed is basically rubbish with a bit of multi vit powder lobbed in! Also our grazing is of much poor quality (nutrition wise, not lush and volumous!).

We have recently had our grazing analysed and it is no wonder one of ours is having trouble getting 100% comfy over all surfaces - it is awful! At least we know now so we can add what they need (no off the shelf feed stuff could come close).

Feeding this diet also has nothing to do with them being barefoot (no fancy barefoot diet is needed), it is a basic 'good health' diet for any working horse. It just so happens that by delving into the barefoot world I have been introduced to this information so I have started to think about this more and educate myself.
 
Pale Rider said:
I see where you are coming from, but taken all round I suspect horses had to work a lot harder for a living in the 5,000yrs plus of domestication prior to being shod. I think that the way we house and feed horses is more of a problem than the 'job' or 'work', we expect now. I see a parallel with what we have done to our children in the Western World with high fat high sugar diets and the obesety and other nutritional diseases.
Click to expand...

You have a very valid point !
 
Snipe said:
Good to know it can be achieved. Are yours stabled at night? I'm a bit concerned about whether I have the facilities available to properly condition the feet.
Click to expand...

No, mine are out 24/7 all year, but if you have to stable I wouldn't let it put you off - it might actually be easier because your horse will be on grass less. I think if you are doing plenty of work and you are willing to look at hoof boots then go for it - none of mine really noticed when they came out of shoes, it was just moving to the current location with very stoney hacking that meant I had to boot them. I think I may have to boot at least one of them forever for hacking, I just can't get his feet as good as I want them, but he still enjoys all the benefits of being barefoot!
 
Snipe said:
ThePony - Thanks for your help :)

Pale Rider - Fascinating subject. I presume once they'd come into common use then people started to notice that horses that were slightly unsound barefoot looked sound with shoes on, and the whole thing snowballed.

soloequestrian - Good to know it can be achieved. Are yours stabled at night? I'm a bit concerned about whether I have the facilities available to properly condition the feet.
Click to expand...

There is some thought that shoeing while in part driven by stabling and the like migrated to the masses because it became fashionable.

I find consistently that owner motivation is the driver behind barefoot success, not money, livery or the like. Owners with horses that are IR or Cushings may find it very difficult, but my clients have proven that it is entirely possible.

Key ingredients are being very sensible with diet and after a suitable training period, working them as hard as you can
 
OneInAMillion said:
Barefoot is brilliant but for example I think a horse that was hunting would struggle without shoes having to pound down roads constantly in trot
Click to expand...
Err, I used to go hunting, and seem to remember going cross country, across grass and ploughed fields, we jumped over hedges and stuff, not much trotting on roads, which were stuffed with cars.
Anyway I am "hardening" my boys feet on tarmac.
 
Just caught up with this. It's such an interesting subject. The diet and conditions in which horses have to be kept to be happy barefoot, in particular. For example, it must be as difficult to keep a poor doer barefoot as to keep a fatty, as I imagine conditioning feeds aren't that conducive to good bare feet?
 
Snipe - it is actually relatively easy to get weight on a horse safely if you feed the hind gut properly, using fermentable fibre, rather than relying on sugar and starch.

For a horse which can't chew another ounce of fibre because they are eating so much then micronised linseed is very good.
 
Having just finished reading "Feet first" I highly recommend it and it will answer all your questions and more. Great book , learnt a lot and loved it :D
 
:D my lovely TB gets ad lib haylage, micronised linseed & still needs a conditioning feed! He's on Allen & page's power and performance at the mo, and looks smashing on it. His hoof quality is also very good, but I'm a bit apprehensive as to whether the starch levels (although low for a performance feed) might be an issue for bare feet.
 
Snipe said:
:D my lovely TB gets ad lib haylage, micronised linseed & still needs a conditioning feed! He's on Allen & page's power and performance at the mo, and looks smashing on it. His hoof quality is also very good, but I'm a bit apprehensive as to whether the starch levels (although low for a performance feed) might be an issue for bare feet.
Click to expand...

it's not the feet - it's the gut that suffers from the starch. The feet are just the visible symptom.

starch and haylage will have an adverse effect on hind gut ph, this won't help your horse put on condition as they won't be able to make the best use of the fibre you feed because too acidic a ph kills off the bacteria which ferment the fibre producing volatile fatty acids (best energy source for horses) b vits and heat.

so feeding starch is expensive and counter productive. but very easy to market and much 'sexier' and more profitable than hay.
 
I understand what you're saying, but I have previously had the horse on ad lib hay, but it didn't put on condition like haylage. I've also tried taking him off traditional hard feed, but he lost weight frighteningly quickly. The combination he's on at the moment seems to work for him, so I'm reluctant to change it. I guess I'll find out if it's a problem when I take his shoes off!
 
LucyPriory said:
it's not the feet - it's the gut that suffers from the starch. The feet are just the visible symptom.

starch and haylage will have an adverse effect on hind gut ph, this won't help your horse put on condition as they won't be able to make the best use of the fibre you feed because too acidic a ph kills off the bacteria which ferment the fibre producing volatile fatty acids (best energy source for horses) b vits and heat.

so feeding starch is expensive and counter productive. but very easy to market and much 'sexier' and more profitable than hay.
Click to expand...

When we talk about haylage being too acidic, I am using haylage which has a high dry matter, it's cut late having seeded and took very little making. However, I assumed it would be less acidic but never got it analysed for pH levels and I've used it all now. The same sort of stuff will be made again this year and I am wondering now if my assumption that there is a corralation between dry matter content and acidity is correct.
 
soloequestrian said:
I think it was because horses began to be kept in situations that didn't promote good hoof health, and so hooves needed artificial protection. If you look at any of the barefoot literature, the aim is to have the horse managed in a way that promotes general good health, and the foot is used as a kind of barometer of this.
Click to expand...
I believe this is the case.
Like many animals we have domesticated we usually keep them confined to varying degrees so they aren't able to choose what to eat, where to go and when. They can't go to high ground to avoid flies for one example. Horses are often and have always been stalled for long periods which is a further 'insult' to hoof health.
The BF movement is trying to turn all this on it's head and look at providing what horses actually need as a species to promote good health and therefore healthy hooves. Getting diet and management right or 'better' for the horse are vital to healthy hooves. I see BF as challanging our ideas about horsemanship in general and for most of us it's a compromise but I aim to turn that compromise more in the horses favour as far as I'm able.
I too believe hooves are a window to general health so the healthier they are the better I believe I'm doing.
 
Just smell the haylage, if it is acidic you will be able to tell, also loose droppings.
There is a lot of confusion about sugars and starches, in my way of thinking sugars are bad for horses, they are like sugar in your tea, and in sweeties [clue in the name] ie not essential part of the diet. Sugars are found in grass and peak at 10.00 am and 4.00 pm approx, which is why lammies are often kept in during the day. Sugars are so readily available they "rush in to the bloodstream" and adversley affect the feet laminae
Complex carbohydrates are found in plant structures, just like in sugar free muesli, they break down in the gut in to sugar molecules which are then used by the horse for his energy, because they break down slowly, they avoid the "sugar rush".
So if we look at a human athlete preparing to run the marathon, he loads up with pasta the night before the race, and during the race he will eat bananas which have a mix of sugars for a quick fix and slow release for a bit of endurance [not an expert in bananas so may be wrong there]
The Linford Christie type sprinters eat a balanced diet every day, they might take a [legal] drink before the race to top up hydration, and a bit of readily available energy for the sprint.
The fibre based diet is the way to go, as far as I know, fibre is a complex carbohydrate.
 
Last edited:
marmalade76 said:
All this BF stuff is sooo interesting, and as I'm halfway there with the management and feeding, I am so tempted to try it!
Click to expand...

Know the feeling, and I think I will always be "half way there" due to the compromises I have to make due to my situation.

My mare has been barefoot at the back since Easter and the fronts are coming off on the 1st August.
 
As far as haylage goes, I used to keep a lot of cattle and fed silage. Now this was low in dry matter and was very acidic. When I changed from clamp silage to haylage, obviously the dry mater content rose. I noticed that the cattle appeared a lot more contented on haylage and lay down cudding a lot, their dung was a lot harder and less liquid.

A mate of mine in the slaughter house said that he could see there was a massive difference in cattle fed on silage and haylage. The rumen on silage fed cattle was very often ulcerated to a large extent, but not so on the ones fed on haylage. Obviously, the silage, very often treated with formic acid, was detrimental to the cattle. My supposition was that by wilting the haylage longer, so that it was nearer hay, but not quite, would lead to a lower pH. The difference in the alimentary tract would cause damage to the intestine in horses rather than the rumen as in cattle, should the pH be too high. Current research has shown that certain bactieria can withstand high levels of acidity, though which bacteria and exactly how high is as yet unclear.

The advantage being that the haylage should be lower in sugar than hay as there is a fermentation process, the higher moisture content is beneficial to the respiratory system of the horse, I'm considering COPD, and would therefore not need soaking to remove higher levels of sugar and dust found in hay. Thats the theory, so far it appears to be working.
 
I too find this fascinating! My TB has completely different shaped back feet to front, and I can't help but wonder if it was because he was barefoot behind and shod in front for a long time. I've taken his backs off again recently, but now I'm wondering about the fronts, too. He's also got typical TB dinnerplate-like feet in front, but not behind... hmmm...
 
Nocturnal said:
I too find this fascinating! My TB has completely different shaped back feet to front, and I can't help but wonder if it was because he was barefoot behind and shod in front for a long time. I've taken his backs off again recently, but now I'm wondering about the fronts, too. He's also got typical TB dinnerplate-like feet in front, but not behind... hmmm...
Click to expand...

The front feet are supposed to be different to the back as they perform two different tasks.
 
Snipe said:
Interesting, thanks. What of the self-trimming described on the Rockley Farm website? It seems to suggest that allowing horses feet to develope naturally, and trim themselves in the way they want, is actually more effective for treating confirmation issues etc?
Click to expand...

I have skim read, so apologies if this has already been answered. I think the self-trimming is a brilliant thing, it allows the horse to grow the hoof he needs in order to compensate for conformation above the foot. The result may not be straight or pretty, but it should be functional.

Snipe said:
ThePony - the heel first landing is something I'm particularly interested in. Is it the case that *no* shod horses land heel-first? (I'm sure I remember seeing photos of some that do). I know my horse doesn't land heel-first (he's shod in front and barefoot behind - doesn't land heel first in front or behind).

OrangeHorse - That's another thing I'm interested in; the changes that happen to a shod hoof when it goes barefoot. Is it possible, once the hooves have changed to support the horse, to put shoes back on (if they're necessary!) and keep the improvements to the foot?
Click to expand...

Its not really productive to have shoes on - even farriery text books say the best that can be hoped is that they cause no damage, and most farriers will recommend a period out of shoes in order to recover (usually when out of the working season for the horse - i.e. summer for hunters, winter for others). With that in mind, why would you want to put shoes back on and potentially undo all that hard work? There are many examples of horses doing really high mileage over a variety of terrains barefoot - see the endurance riders, for example.

The concept of barefoot is that shoes aren't necessary, they are merely used out of convenience for us humans who want to suddenly introduce roadwork, for example. If changes are made gradually enough, and the horse receives the correct nutritional and mechanical support, shoes should not be required by most horses. It is when people have to keep their horses on livery in sugary fields, with inconsistent work on roads and fed high starch diets that the decision to shoe becomes the easiest option for the management of the horse - not just the fact that they do a lot of roadwork. Working on roads is one of the best things you can do to promote a healthy bare hoof! ;)

Snipe said:
I understand what you're saying, but I have previously had the horse on ad lib hay, but it didn't put on condition like haylage. I've also tried taking him off traditional hard feed, but he lost weight frighteningly quickly. The combination he's on at the moment seems to work for him, so I'm reluctant to change it. I guess I'll find out if it's a problem when I take his shoes off!
Click to expand...

See in my experience the good barefooters get the diet right before taking the shoes off, not the other way around. Why don't you talk to an independant nutritionalist, or a barefoot nutritionalist, about your horse's diet?
 
Pale Rider said:
Do you think thats as a result of shoeing? Flat feet usually are.
Click to expand...

Tbh I really don't know enough about it to say, as terrible as that sounds :o

It is something I'm discussing with the farrier, though, and if it can't be corrected with shoeing then I'd consider going barefoot, over the winter at least.
 
Naturally - I'd only really put shoes back on to stud up. If the horse doesn't slip when competing on grass then they won't go back on.

With regard to feed, I'm not aware of any problems with his current feed regime, but am just cautious that if there are problems that I don't know about, then they will show up when his shoes come off. To be fair, the horse is sound in the field and on a surface when he loses a front, but just a bit footy on gravel.
 
Even in shoes, my horse's soles are not particularly thin. His backs have been off for 6 weeks now, and his soles are as tough as if he'd been barefoot his whole life. There's no sign of chips or cracks either, and he was sound from day 1 even on rocky ground. So I have no evidence of his diet being lacking at all; it seems far more likely that its down to shoeing and natural conformation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top