a question for Kelly Marks

Thanks Blurr. Checked on Anthrozoos when I read the comment earlier but cannot see it included in either March or June publications (next one due September). I too had read that it had been accepted by them, just doesn't seem to have materialised yet.
 
I'm not Kelly Marks either, but I am a library bod with full text access to Anthrozoos.

If the article you want is "A Comparison of the Monty Roberts Technique with a Conventional UK Technique for Initial Training of Riding Horses" its going to be published in v.25 no.3 in Sept. Its available via subscription already on pre-published format if you are studying at an institution which subscribes to the journal.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/berg/anthroz/pre-prints/253d
 
Well, I got the paper - very interesting. And now I have another question...

I'd really like to ask why he used the buckstopper around 10 times (from what I can make of the graph) in this study using young, unspoiled horses. He only had seven horses to train in total, so either everyone got it at least once - or a few got it several times. I am shocked at the frequency this gadget was used.

I think this study raises some serious ethical questions.

I was, however, pleased to see that the conventional trainer refused to teach his horses to back up in the allocated time - even though it meant he lost all possible points for that manouvre in the final comparison in the ridden test. At least someone had the horses' best interests at heart.
 
Tess i am interested to know if disagree with the competition scene and the often questionable training practices associated with it and also what your ideal outcome would be with regards to the flaws you see in the NH world?
 
wow, Allover - that's a bit of an essay you have asked for there! :-) But I'll try to be brief.

I think I would disagree with questionable training practices anywhere - doesn't matter if it's for a competition, or for teaching a horse to be a safe ride, or even just teaching a youngster basic handling. There's good training and bad training everywhere - we see more bad than good, but I know there are people out there doing some very good stuff. Often they are the people who are not so much in the spotlight - but maybe sometimes they are!

As for NH, well, sometimes I read stuff and it seems pretty gentle, so again I can't bracket NH as one and condemn the whole lot. What I'd really like is a bit of honesty though - call a spade a spade and not dress it up as games, respect, trust, leadership, dominance, whatever - when what it is really about most of the time is coercion. But this thread is about the Monty study, and what I'd like for this is that his method wasn't being touted as the "kindest" when it involves high pressure gadgets and is basically a speed test.
 
Cuffey said:
If it is not a daft question why not discuss this on IHDG forum?
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As they have been asked before, if they have any specific questions, as Kelly will be made aware of them and be able to respond. I'm not sure all professional horse people necessarily have the time to spend searching other forums, but obviously that is something that can be used against them too :rolleyes: Is it me or is it hugely impolite to ask a personally directed question on a public forum, especially considering the posting history of the main posters on here? Discussions are one thing, witch hunts are another.

Instead we get the broken record posting on here which, even if Kelly is aware of, she cannot really even respond as then she is button pushed for advertising (and I can hazard a guess at who is doing the reporting ;) )
 
I believe it was "Naturally" who cleared it with H and H admin that Kelly could post in response to questions. And, no, I have never reported Kelly to the FC.

These are new questions - I had no idea how often he used the buckstopper. Even I am shocked - and believe me, that is saying something.
 
tess1 said:
Yes, but what does this say about his confidence in his own method. Looking at the graph, the buckstopper was used around 10 times, and join up maybe 20? And yet Monty is famous for join up, and lots of people don't even realise he uses the buckstopper. How often is he using one "out of the spotlight" as it were, if he is prepared to use one this much in a study designed to prove how kind and effective join up is?
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Does the report say how often the buckstop was used by the 'traditional' trainers?
 
tess1 said:
I believe it was "Naturally" who cleared it with H and H admin that Kelly could post in response to questions. And, no, I have never reported Kelly to the FC.
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He gave some fairly strict criteria, which would make it very difficult to respond to most of the questions posted IMO. And he also added

TheFatControlleR said:
But it is a fine line, and if crossed I'm sure there are users here who will be only too willing to advise us of it.
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which I feel is the case, as was borne out by the 'celebrations' when another professional (or rather his wife) was reported and banned on the forum. If I were Kelly, or any other professional, I personally wouldn't bother to respond to ongoing public vendettas, I'm sure if you really wanted answers to the questions you could contact Kelly herself..

I am ambivalent about the work done by KM and MR, and enjoy reasonable, balanced discussions on the techniques on this forum, but your repeated postings come across as something very different indeed.
 
Goldenstar said:
Numpty question what exactly is a buck stopper and how does it function ?
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Just looked it up .. Rein ..akin to daisy rein, which stops their head from being lowered therefore they can buck. If they try it pulls on the bit and I guess it hurts their mouths.
 
TrasaM said:
Just looked it up .. Rein ..akin to daisy rein, which stops their head from being lowered therefore they can buck. If they try it pulls on the bit and I guess it hurts their mouths.
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You're sort of on the right track but a buckstop doesn't act on the bit, it is a narrow line/rope which runs under the horse's upper lip and puts pressure on the gums.
 
It works on the gum, not the bit. A thin line is run around the horse's top gum, attached to the bridle and then the saddle.

The answer was in response to an older horse who had supposedly serious behavioural problems but no physical ones (turned out later the horse did have physical problems). Monty's justification for the buckstopper has always been that it's a last hope for horses who will be destroyed if he can't sort them. In the study that I read today, they were young, unbacked horses at the start of their ridden career, with no threat of slaughter, and this was a study designed to prove how kind and effective Monty's methods were - so a somewhat different context.


(cross posted with Rhino)
 
Anglebracket said:
Looks like Monty Roberts has already answered your question three years ago:

http://ihdg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=ght09&action=display&thread=100941

(found the above when I googled buckstopper)
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Well it sounds like a nasty gadget and while I am realistic enough to understand that when you are in big trouble and the horse is at the last chance saloon you do what you need to do but am rather surprised that so many blank canvas youngsters needed it to be used.
 
TrasaM said:
Does the report say how often the buckstop was used by the 'traditional' trainers?
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How many 'traditional' trainers use a buckstop?? I don't know if I would count as a 'traditional' trainer - probably much more 'traditional' than NH - but I have NEVER used anything like a buckstop on a breaker! If a breaker bucks, there is a reason. It's either that you've hurried it too much and it's frightened - or there's an underlying problem causing pain!

I have one at present - she's been under rider for a week and is foot perfect in walk and trot - but bronks as soon as she's asked to canter. So vet checked her this morning - and physio is seeing her Wednesday! If pain is causing her to bronk - and I think it is - what the ******* would be the justification for a buckstop! And if we've pushed her a bit fast and she's frightened (and I don;t think that applies) what the ******* would be the justification for a buckstop??
 
tess1 said:
It works on the gum, not the bit. A thin line is run around the horse's top gum, attached to the bridle and then the saddle.

The answer was in response to an older horse who had supposedly serious behavioural problems but no physical ones (turned out later the horse did have physical problems). Monty's justification for the buckstopper has always been that it's a last hope for horses who will be destroyed if he can't sort them. In the study that I read today, they were young, unbacked horses at the start of their ridden career, with no threat of slaughter, and this was a study designed to prove how kind and effective Monty's methods were - so a somewhat different context.


(cross posted with Rhino)
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I was trying to highlight the fact that you appear to have a long-standing disagreement with Monty Roberts / Kelly Marks about the use of buckstoppers. It is fine to be critical but you seem to be conducting a personal vendetta on this forum.

Why not just have a general discussion about the use of buckstoppers?
 
Yes, I disagree with the use of buckstoppers. And I disagree with a high-profile trainer using buckstoppers on unspoiled youngsters in a study which pits him against a conventional trainer (who used no such gadgets) and is meant to prove how kind his methods are. We can talk about buckstoppers in general, or buckstoppers in the particular, but it doesn't detract from the fact that the main proponent of buckstoppers in this country is Monty Roberts. Let's face it when Pat Parelli (and I'm no fan) used one, all hell broke loose, but Monty has been using them for years and no one says a word (well, apart from me that is - but never let it be said I don't stick my head above the parapet!).
 
JanetGeorge said:
How many 'traditional' trainers use a buckstop?? I don't know if I would count as a 'traditional' trainer - probably much more 'traditional' than NH - but I have NEVER used anything like a buckstop on a breaker! If a breaker bucks, there is a reason. It's either that you've hurried it too much and it's frightened - or there's an underlying problem causing pain!

I have one at present - she's been under rider for a week and is foot perfect in walk and trot - but bronks as soon as she's asked to canter. So vet checked her this morning - and physio is seeing her Wednesday! If pain is causing her to bronk - and I think it is - what the ******* would be the justification for a buckstop! And if we've pushed her a bit fast and she's frightened (and I don;t think that applies) what the ******* would be the justification for a buckstop??
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I certainly agree with this.... :D
 
DragonSlayer said:
I certainly agree with this.... :D
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yes, me too! And I am guessing the reason that the buckstoppers got used in the study was because the horses were being pushed too fast and they got frightened/resisted. After all, the goal of the study was to have the horses complete a dressage test and an obstacle course after ten hours of training.
 
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