A Question for MaxB

AmyMay

AmyMay

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Can I put something to you Max, and get your views? I'm going to outline two real life situations. Everthying described is what happened to two of my horses.

Case No. 1

TB - ex steeple chaser. 16.2hh. Retired to field at 13 years old due to lameness issues. This horse was given to me as a 15 year old due to his owner moving away. As a 16 year old his lameness problems started to make life pretty difficult for him - he also started to experience episodes of total collapse. Despite everyone's best efforts the decision was made to put him down in the February of his 17th year. At this time he was on up to 3 sometimes 4 satchets of Danillon a day.

Case 2

Welsh cob mare. 14.2hh. Retired due to lameness issues at 16 - essentially ringbone, and issues with the sesamoid ligaments, in addition the annular ligament. But very happily field sound with no medical support. Two years later received a devastating injury to the DDFT. Decision made to put her down.



Because I am based in the UK - I have at my disposal vet's and/or a huntsman that can put my horses down. If I were in France the situation would be totally different, and these two horses would probably have ended up in the low end dealer types you guys get some of your horses from. And then quite possibly have ended up being advertised as needing a new home. Both would have been attractive proposals - because despite their problems both were in extremely good condition on the day they met their maker.



So, how would you feel if you had bought either of my two horses, and then discovered their devastating problems?
 
Interesting debate AM I know what you mean, my Highland looked in really good condition when I called the Hunt out because he was having occasional fits and hit the deck without any warning so suddenly it would have been difficult to get out of his way in a confined space and every child visitor went to pet him--I could not risk a child being hurt or killed.
 
Just been through this, healthy looking horse, loads of problems, big risk to safety and others. Had him PTS, couldn't have that on my conscience, and equally, couldn't risk him going through numerous hands, meat markets etc.
 
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Will be interesting to hear MaxB's take on this

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Yes, I'm genuinly interested to hear their views on these two cases - and would love to discuss it further with them.

I've probably posted at the wrong time of the day though to be honest.....
 
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Can I put something to you Max, and get your views? I'm going to outline two real life situations. Everthying described is what happened to two of my horses.

Case No. 1

TB - ex steeple chaser. 16.2hh. Retired to field at 13 years old due to lameness issues. This horse was given to me as a 15 year old due to his owner moving away. As a 16 year old his lameness problems started to make life pretty difficult for him - he also started to experience episodes of total collapse. Despite everyone's best efforts the decision was made to put him down in the February of his 17th year. At this time he was on up to 3 sometimes 4 satchets of Danillon a day.

Case 2

Welsh cob mare. 14.2hh. Retired due to lameness issues at 16 - essentially ringbone, and issues with the sesamoid ligaments, in addition the annular ligament. But very happily field sound with no medical support. Two years later received a devastating injury to the DDFT. Decision made to put her down.



Because I am based in the UK - I have at my disposal vet's and/or a huntsman that can put my horses down. If I were in France the situation would be totally different, and these two horses would probably have ended up in the low end dealer types you guys get some of your horses from. And then quite possibly have ended up being advertised as needing a new home. Both would have been attractive proposals - because despite their problems both were in extremely good condition on the day they met their maker.



So, how would you feel if you had bought either of my two horses, and then discovered their devastating problems?

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Sorry only just seen this question.
I actually do not rescue from France as have two horses already and sadly cannot afford a third.
I will answer you hypothetically though.
If I bought a horse as described above from France I would on one hand be devastated to have found an old servant discarded in such a terrible way, sent to their end in such horrific circumstances.
On the other hand if I was rescuing a horse from France to stop it enduring a horrendous journey to a terrible death in a slaughter house in Italy then I would be relieved to have brought them into a loving, safe environment even if it meant putting them to sleep soon after arriving . At least they would end their lives humanely with dignity .
When you rescue a horse/pony from France there are no guarantees , that is made very clear. If I wanted a guarantee I would buy a horse here . The whole point of rescuing from France is that the horses there are destined to die, so you take a chance that they may have problems. To be honest if one buys a horse in its teenage years here or anywhere there is always going to be a higher risk of a physical problem, if you want to lessen the risk it might be wiser to go for a younger horse, but then again no guarantees.

I am sorry to hear of your losses one is bad enough but two is tragic.
You are a very caring lady to give two old horses such quality of life and a compassionate end.
As horse owners/lovers I feel we have a huge responsibility to care for all horses at risk , there are some heartless wicked bastards in this world and horses that have ended up in the wrong places at the wrong times suffer terrible abuse. I do know from what I have seen that some of the horses rescued from France certainly did not deserve to be in those places, and most have suffered some sort of neglect or abuse. For that reason IMO they should be rescued I just wish that I could win the lottery and then I too could help .
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Hi MaxB - thanks for your response.

Where is your evidence, though, that these horses would have gone to Italy?
 
I have read many articles on the Internet and it is a fact that some horses make this horrendous journey , I also have friends living in France who know first hand that this does happen in many cases. I am sure that some would have gone to French abattoirs , but that does not mean that they deserve to go there does it?
 
Thanks for the response MaxB, I agree it is terrible that an old horse can be discarded in that way, the trouble is that it is not so easy in France to have your horse put down, if you have them put down at home it can take days for the body to be collected, which is obviously horrendous, perhaps we should all put some effort into changing that state of affairs.

I have to disagree about the horses going to Italy, the vast majority of those horses are from the eastern block, very very few french horses are slaughtered in Italy, you only have to look at the vast amount of abbatoires in France to see that this is true, this is also confirmed by horse owners in France.

The plight of the eastern block horses is one that really needs attention, they are the main focus for the WHW campaign, I know also that EIA is endemic in the eastern block, and that if a horse is destined for slaughter in Italy, there is no need for a coggins test - some of these horses seem to have ended up on the rescue sites, and, whilst, I feel for the horses, I really do worry that some of these could be brought into this country carrying EIA.
 
Max why is it better to be travelled to the UK, only to be PTS on arrival, as apposed to being taken to a slaughter house in France?
If the end result is a horse being destroyed, surely the less amount of stress it has to endure beforehand is paramount?
It may well be PTS in the UK after a loving pat and a bucket of feed, but the poor soul will have endured an awful long time in a horsebox, when it may not be sound enough to cope adequately with the journey (not to mention the stress of it all!).
Horses being travelled to Italy is becoming rarer, and there is campaigning going on to stop what remains, but the majority of what is being imported to the UK is destined for slaughter in France!
I cant really answer the "do they deserve" question, because i eat meat, and therefore i would have to answer that question be it cow, chicken, pig or sheep.
They are bred for meat and that i'm afraid is their purpose in life.
Do you hold the same views on chicken, sheep, cows and pigs Max?
 
No joeanne I do not I am not a vegetarian so I do not hold the same views but I do not believe horses who have become a leisure animal for us here in the Uk should be slaughtered indiscriminately for meat . Have you any personal contact with any horses rescued from France who were going to be eaten?
I have met quite a few now and I can tell you that none of these useful horses and ponies should have been in the meat chain. They have included French Trotters which are now in private riding club homes, Cobs gone to families to drive and show. Several ponies in riding schools and many more that have found new homes with a purpose in life. There will be casualties this is not a perfect world but rescue horses have more chance of being helped as there is now a growing number of caring individuals who join together to help the horses, people who rescue are not alone left out in the cold with no help they have many people on the rescue sites ready to step in and assist.

If you truly love horses how can you say that some of these great animals were bred for meat so that is their purpose in life. The two do not equate in my opinion.

I do not have a passion for cows sheep and pigs but I do for horses. I have ridden since I was 4yrs old and have owned horses for over 30yrs my life revolves around horses, I have ridden competed and bred horses and hopefully will continue to do so.
I totally support the welfare of ALL equines in the world. The French Rescue Sites do a fantastic job and should be applauded for the lives they save.
 
This is the problem i have see!
Its double standards.....just because you have no interest in cows, sheep, pigs, and chickens doesnt make them any the less "deserving" of slaughter.
Its hypocrisy!
I keep chickens, i have kept pigs (who let me let you are super intelligent, loving animals, probably more aware of whats happening than a horse would be when it comes to slaughter!), and have had dealing with cattle. These horses are bred for meat, not temperament, conformation, or ability to do a certain job.....its meat, pure and simple!
Yes Max i have had dealings with horses from France that were "saved" from slaughter.
None of them are easy horses, having been unhandled and unsocialized. One has been passed around various dealers in my area, and repeatedly sold on despite the fact the animal is not suitable for riding, due to its behaviour under the saddle. What do you think wil happen to her Max? Wasnt the cosy ending you and your friends were hoping for her i bet!
The cases you state Max are the minority, not the majority, as those poor individuals tend to be passed around, sold to people who know nothing horses, let alone one with the amount of problems these "rescues" have!
 
photos of a a slaughter house here in Italy where horses meet their 'horrific' deaths. It looks incredibly clean and efficient to me. Why this pathological horror of Italian slaughterhouses-they are governed by the same rules and regs as any other European slaughterhouse. It is also NOT TRUE that Italian Salami contains horse or donkey meat. Horse and Donkey Salami cost a small fortune and are sold as such. Normal everyday salami contains pork and beef ONLY!
http://www.bulgarelli.it/ENG/Gallery.asp?CODCAT=Cavalli
 
very efficient Mairi...just like Potters...

i get really cross about ill-conceived bollox that is forever churned out by people who have NEVER been within 100yds of an Abattoir...let alone seen these "horrific" deaths 1st hand...
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I have read many articles on the Internet and it is a fact that some horses make this horrendous journey , I also have friends living in France who know first hand that this does happen in many cases. I am sure that some would have gone to French abattoirs , but that does not mean that they deserve to go there does it?

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There are a huge amount of abattoirs in France. And so the vast majority of horses would be dispatched at one of these - not face a journey to Italy. It is more the Eastern block countries such as Poland and Romania whose horses are transported to Italy, agreed in often terrible conditions. The WHW works tirelessly to stop this trade in misery - and I fully support their campaign.

Unfortunately for horse owners in France, it is a fact that their horse may well end up destroyed at an abattoire. Having done your own research, you'll appreciate how difficult it is for the 'normal' horse owner to have their horse put down at home. And that the eventual fate that awaits them is to be sold to a dealer for meat money, before being sent for destruction. I agree that it's unfortunate and certainly not where I'd want my old 'friend' to end up. But France's laws are different to ours.........

I take my hat off to anyone wanting to help an animal they may think is need. However, I know that the money spent importing just one horse from France could be put to better use by doing good for several from the UK.
 
You asked me a question I answered you.
Thats how I feel.
This thread will go the same as all the others on here about French Rescue horses and frankly everyone has heard it all before.
 
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This thread will go the same as all the others on here about French Rescue horses and frankly everyone has heard it all before.

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Ah not so for me Max, because you have quite frankly opened up a whole new can of worms for me!
Can you please try and explain, why its ok to slaughter pigs, sheep, chicken, cows etc for meat but not horses?
I fail to see the difference myself, and personally I really am ok with it, provided I am assured it had a nice life while alive, and was treated with respect during the slaughter process.
Meat bred horses are no different to beef bulls!
For me, as long as the horse was kept in decent conditions, and more importantly, its despatched humanely i cant see the problem.
 
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This thread will go the same as all the others on here about French Rescue horses and frankly everyone has heard it all before.

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Ah not so for me Max, because you have quite frankly opened up a whole new can of worms for me!
Can you please try and explain, why its ok to slaughter pigs, sheep, chicken, cows etc for meat but not horses?
I fail to see the difference myself, and personally I really am ok with it, provided I am assured it had a nice life while alive, and was treated with respect during the slaughter process.
Meat bred horses are no different to beef bulls!
For me, as long as the horse was kept in decent conditions, and more importantly, its despatched humanely i cant see the problem.

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You love your species of animal and i will love mine
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You have already called me a Hypocrite, but as I have not posted on here to try and be your friend I really do not give two hoots what you think of me.
For all I know you could be a person who enjoys the thought of killing animals and gets pleasure from it.
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