A question for the "Barefoot Taliban"!

Looks as though your farrier wasn't doing a great job.

There are good and bad farriers, and good and bad trimmers so will only say please find a good one (of either sort!!)

Also, barefoot doesn't suit every horse. I have two barefoot and one shod, even though he is mostly retired. He is sooooo uncomfortable without shoes, and elderly, that I can;t bear to put him through the transition period, i have tried before, and gave in after several months. He is much happier shod.
 
if I have missed in the thread I am sorry but I don't think OP says how long she had had the horse so this farrier could have taken the horse on with the under run soles etc.
Also I don't know if it's been mentioned but if the horse if stabled bedding is the single most important thing that will affect the soles for the best foot health any sort of deep litter is a no no and sawdust is just terrible terrible stuff for causing soft soles and abscesses .
I bed on large purpose made shavings beds are kept very dry and clean and we pick out feet am after turn out after work and late evening all the horses that arrive here with thrush etc improve very quickly and it's easy to get on top of if they get a bit in winter when the turnout is beyond muddy.
We got a TB from a yard where it was deep litter sawdust bedding it had had continual abbesses in its previous home after the first week we never had one with it in eight years.
Diet is important but the right bedding and bedding management is just as important so is the right work.
Finally the farriers lament it's got bad feet , it's a TB , it's just like that . It makes me so cross these horses need a period with out shoes with good trimming and apporiate diet excellent stable management even the most under run heel will improve with simple steps.
 
These are all excellent points....

But I think it's important to try and keep things as simple as possible.

1) Good diet
2) Movement on various surfaces available (within the horse's comfort)
3) Sympathetic trimming

Everything else can be used to tweak when those three things aren't enough for the individual horse.

But the basics (no matter what is 'wrong' with the hoof and therefore the rest of the horse) are always the same to get on the right track.
 
Goldenstar said:
if I have missed in the thread I am sorry but I don't think OP says how long she had had the horse so this farrier could have taken the horse on with the under run soles etc.
Also I don't know if it's been mentioned but if the horse if stabled bedding is the single most important thing that will affect the soles for the best foot health any sort of deep litter is a no no and sawdust is just terrible terrible stuff for causing soft soles and abscesses .
I bed on large purpose made shavings beds are kept very dry and clean and we pick out feet am after turn out after work and late evening all the horses that arrive here with thrush etc improve very quickly and it's easy to get on top of if they get a bit in winter when the turnout is beyond muddy.
We got a TB from a yard where it was deep litter sawdust bedding it had had continual abbesses in its previous home after the first week we never had one with it in eight years.
Diet is important but the right bedding and bedding management is just as important so is the right work.
Finally the farriers lament it's got bad feet , it's a TB , it's just like that . It makes me so cross these horses need a period with out shoes with good trimming and apporiate diet excellent stable management even the most under run heel will improve with simple steps.
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Why do you feel bedding is so important? Why would sawdust cause abcesses?
 
Clava said:
Why do you feel bedding is so important? Why would sawdust cause abcesses?
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sawdust is very absordant so is deep littered it soaks up the urine and this packs the feet causing the soles to soften and therefore to be more prone to problems many many years ago I worked on a yard that was split in two for some reason I forget one yard was on sawdust and the other on straw the horses on the sawdust yard got abscesses the others did not that is what got me thinking about it first then I had to get a new farrier and when I rang him to ask if he would take on the the yard he asked what do. You bed them on because I wont do sawdust yards ( honestly he did ) so then I realised its not just me my present farriers also says sawdust causes problems and the farriers gets blamed for things that are not there fault ( I do think there is some truth on this in some cases)
In past we where always taught straw for good feet peat ( that shows my age ) for a good wind of course we have shavings now and I can't think any one uses peat any more , now that was a nightmare to care for .
Stabled horses feet are under attack from all sorts of things that they would not be required to stand in if outside that's why I know bedding and bedding care is the one ofbthe biggest things that the owner can influence by old fashioned good management
 
Goldenstar said:
sawdust is very absordant so is deep littered it soaks up the urine and this packs the feet causing the soles to soften and therefore to be more prone to problems many many years ago I worked on a yard that was split in two for some reason I forget one yard was on sawdust and the other on straw the horses on the sawdust yard got abscesses the others did not that is what got me thinking about it first then I had to get a new farrier and when I rang him to ask if he would take on the the yard he asked what do. You bed them on because I wont do sawdust yards ( honestly he did ) so then I realised its not just me my present farriers also says sawdust causes problems and the farriers gets blamed for things that are not there fault ( I do think there is some truth on this in some cases)
In past we where always taught straw for good feet peat ( that shows my age ) for a good wind of course we have shavings now and I can't think any one uses peat any more , now that was a nightmare to care for .
Stabled horses feet are under attack from all sorts of things that they would not be required to stand in if outside that's why I know bedding and bedding care is the one ofbthe biggest things that the owner can influence by old fashioned good management
Click to expand...

Interesting thankyou. I don't stable mine so I couldn't think what would be the huge difference (but if I did it would be on straw, which is what I was brought up with :))
 
Strasser was a believer of bedding being a problem for horses in the early days of BF.

I've bedded on straw, shavings, chopped straw, straw pellets and wood pellets - no bedding has ever made any difference to my horses.

If their diet is correct and they can have adequate movement, they can easily resist external factors like bedding and mud.
 
Miss L Toe said:
Ok, just to be "Devils Advocate" does that not indicate mismanagement by owner, I rasp off my boy's feet every few weeks if he has not been getting his regular 20 mins on the road which let him self trim.
Is it not easy peasy, just rasp off the long toe, cut out the sugar in the diet and exercise the horse?
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For some hores, Cleveland Bays and Iberians being two prone groups "cut out the sugar" can mean no access to grass at all. In most livery yards this would normally mean never turing out, which is far from ideal for the movement that a barefooter needs.

What you say is basically correct and sounds simple, but some owners have some very difficult horses :(
 
Oberon said:
Strasser was a believer of bedding being a problem for horses in the early days of BF.

I've bedded on straw, shavings, chopped straw, straw pellets and wood pellets - no bedding has ever made any difference to my horses.

If their diet is correct and they can have adequate movement, they can easily resist external factors like bedding and mud.
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The diet and movement I would have thought would be the deciding factor too, as mine stand in mud all day and night, but hooves are great in winter.
 
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If you soaked your hands for long periods in bacteria infested damp anything no amount of eating the right things would prevent you getting soft nails infections etc etc the horses foot is no different.
 
Goldenstar said:
If you soaked your hands for long periods in bacteria infested damp anything no amount of eating the right things would prevent you getting soft nails infections etc etc the horses foot is no different.
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But most horses have periods outside the stable and most stables are cleaned daily so hooves shouldn't be in soaking wet soiled bedding. I do find it hard to believe that the bedding of the average horse with turn out and in work is going to strongly affect the hooves (more than diet) although I understand your reasoning.
 
Goldenstar said:
If you soaked your hands for long periods in bacteria infested damp anything no amount of eating the right things would prevent you getting soft nails infections etc etc the horses foot is no different.
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I agree that a clean bed is important.

It is astonishing how my horse's hooves manage in all the mud. It's yucky:p

Diet will allow the immune system to work effectively and movement will lay down tissue and out run the bactera/fungus.
 
Santa Paws said:
For some hores, Cleveland Bays and Iberians being two prone groups "cut out the sugar" can mean no access to grass at all. In most livery yards this would normally mean never turing out, which is far from ideal for the movement that a barefooter needs.
(
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Interesting you mention Cleveland Bays. My first trimmer commented she thought my horse had some CB in her. I assumed at the time she meant her personality. :D

I read an overview of a study on thehorse.com fairly recently about hooves and bedding. They found that neither urine or faeces had much effect on good strong hooves/horn but faeces especially played havoc with poor quality hooves and horn.

I think the same applies to mud and very wet conditions.
 
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Clava said:
But most horses have periods outside the stable and most stables are cleaned daily so hooves shouldn't be in soaking wet soiled bedding. I do find it hard to believe that the bedding of the average horse with turn out and in work is going to strongly affect the hooves (more than diet) although I understand your reasoning.
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Definitely a contributory factor in our case, very wet dirty gelding who seems to find the only pooey wet bit in the stable to stand in and if you consider he comes in at about 4pm and goes out 7am that's a long time to stand in bad conditions.

He was on shavings and what didn't help was the rubber mats where drainage was bad and the wee seemed to collect in pools creating soggy areas.

I moved to wood pellets and his feet improved beyond belief. However we were having problems with allergies and as various woods came up as triggers were had to go onto non wood bedding so went onto straw. All the wee drained through the straw and sat on the mats and his feet got bad again.

Moved yards and am now on straw without mats and he is much better but have to watch his back feet as that's what stands in the soggy bit. Mud and wet causes no problems at all.

However he is an exceptionally dirty horse.
 
Oberon said:
You could try straw pellets?
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I could go back to wood pellets as all his allergies have now gone and straw pellets look interesting.

I probably would try them if bedding was under my control and I did everything myself but he's on part livery and I get straw including with the livery and he is quite expensive to bed, with wood pellets we were using about several times the amount suggested weekly and shavings I was up to 4 bales of Hunters a week and it never looked clean.
Plus yard staff have always been hostile to other types of bedding.


I've found ways that keep things under control.

A really deep bed helps as urine drains through and the top stays dry and it's definitely improved since we stopped using mats.

I spend alot of time skipping out when I go up after work and sometime will not pick his feet out after a ride as the mud forms a barrier, then they get picked out before he goes to the field.

Just wanted to make the point that even with getting everything else right bad conditions are not going to help feet.
 
Goldenstar said:
if I have missed in the thread I am sorry but I don't think OP says how long she had had the horse so this farrier could have taken the horse on with the under run soles etc.
Also I don't know if it's been mentioned but if the horse if stabled bedding is the single most important thing that will affect the soles for the best foot health any sort of deep litter is a no no and sawdust is just terrible terrible stuff for causing soft soles and abscesses .
I bed on large purpose made shavings beds are kept very dry and clean and we pick out feet am after turn out after work and late evening all the horses that arrive here with thrush etc improve very quickly and it's easy to get on top of if they get a bit in winter when the turnout is beyond muddy.
We got a TB from a yard where it was deep litter sawdust bedding it had had continual abbesses in its previous home after the first week we never had one with it in eight years.
Diet is important but the right bedding and bedding management is just as important so is the right work.
Finally the farriers lament it's got bad feet , it's a TB , it's just like that . It makes me so cross these horses need a period with out shoes with good trimming and apporiate diet excellent stable management even the most under run heel will improve with simple steps.
Click to expand...
WOW Goldenstar an I are soul sisters. I once had a horse with thrush [1973], and was aghast that it was me who had caused it, never again.
 
criso said:
I could go back to wood pellets as all his allergies have now gone and straw pellets look interesting.

I probably would try them if bedding was under my control and I did everything myself but he's on part livery and I get straw including with the livery and he is quite expensive to bed, with wood pellets we were using about several times the amount suggested weekly and shavings I was up to 4 bales of Hunters a week and it never looked clean.
Plus yard staff have always been hostile to other types of bedding.



I spend alot of time skipping out when I go up after work and sometime will not pick his feet out after a ride as the mud forms a barrier, then they get picked out before he goes to the field.

Just wanted to make the point that even with getting everything else right bad conditions are not going to help feet.
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I have three areas in the bed, one, three walls made of try clean shavings.
The matted area where he sleeps, is dry clean shavings.
Dirty area, this is where he will piss and I will remove this area every day, move the clean area down to the dirty area.
I an a bit anal when it comes to beds, but you have to adapt to horse and to size of stable and the bedding etcetera.
QUOTE
Plus yard staff have always been hostile to other types of bedding.
.. hostile staff is bad news, but normal.
 
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To answer the questions so far (hopefully I haven't missed anything).

Horse is bedded on shavings with rubber matting. He is mucked out twice a day (usually 2 wheel barrow loads)

He is suffering from KS and PSD (see previous threads) and is supposed to be on box-rest however he does go out in a small area everyday. To get to the field he has to walk up a road and some parts are very stony

I have been in contact with a trimmer and am currently changing his feed over from Healthy Hoof to unmolassed speedibeet with brewers yeast, linseed and max ox.

I have been saying to my previous and current farrier that I am not happy with his hooves and when he went lame got the vet to thoroughly examine them and didn't think there was much wrong with them (this was about a month ago - 2 week before the shoes were pulled)
 
loverly said:
To answer the questions so far (hopefully I haven't missed anything).

Horse is bedded on shavings with rubber matting. He is mucked out twice a day (usually 2 wheel barrow loads)

He is suffering from KS and PSD (see previous threads) and is supposed to be on box-rest however he does go out in a small area everyday. To get to the field he has to walk up a road and some parts are very stony

I have been in contact with a trimmer and am currently changing his feed over from Healthy Hoof to unmolassed speedibeet with brewers yeast, linseed and max ox.

I have been saying to my previous and current farrier that I am not happy with his hooves and when he went lame got the vet to thoroughly examine them and didn't think there was much wrong with them (this was about a month ago - 2 week before the shoes were pulled)
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It's really difficult if the vet does not 'get ' what you are on about but my advice would be trust your instincts if your guts are telling you that without shoes is the way to go o for it there's always lots of good advice about websites and books to look at on the forum invest some time reading up and find a way forward that works for you
You really can't be surprised that lots of the farriers are not into it as it does cost them money when people realise they can do things another way it's also
reinventing the wheel to lots of them.
Vets are trained to intervene and I think some of them really find it hard to accept that what they see as doing nothing ( even though it's not really doing nothing ) can be better than lots expensive drugs special shoes etc etc.
I would get a good trimmer to look at your horse I hope you get on well with it all I am am amazed at what my horse( who had no foot probs ) is doing all for him self since we ditched the shoes
 
Miss L Toe said:
The matted area where he sleeps, is dry clean shavings.
Dirty area, this is where he will piss and I will remove this area every day, move the clean area down to the dirty area.
.
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I wish someone would explain to Frankie the concept of toilet areas and sleeping areas being separate rather than interchangeable, he has a particularly endearing habit at the moment of lying in such a way as to get s**t all over the buckles and fastening of this rugs which is lovely when you change them first thing in the morning.

Yard manager was laughing the other day at how she sees me out riding him and he looks like such a smart horse (tb and in fab condition) and then in his stable he's such a pig.

It's under control but you have to keep on top of and I'm moving yards this month (not because of any of this) so we'll see how we fare there. I have warned them how dirty he is.
 
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