A question for the "Barefoot Taliban"!

Fiona, He/she shouldn't be tripping, if they do it means there is a problem with diet/management/farrier trimming when he shouldn't.

A barefoot trimmer can't 'trim' the horse sound, but they will give invaluable advice on diet, management, boots etc.
 
FionaM12 said:
He will trip and stumble if his feet are sore
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I've had several horses with weak feet who walked very cautiously on stony ground but I would not describe them as "tripping and stumbling". A horse should not be exposed to surfaces which make him trip and stumble, he should either be kept off them, or booted up.

FionaM12 said:
Once you take the shoes off it takes a long time (months) before the feet harden up enough to cope without shoes.
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I think you have missed quite a few words out of this sentence. Once you take the shoes off it can take a long time (months) before the feet harden up enough to cope without shoes, though these are extreme cases. Most horses are comfortable either immediately or within a few weeks.

It is particularly the case that if you are able to get the diet right for several months before removing the shoes that the horse is likely to cope more easily.

FionaM12 said:
If he has abcesses these need properly treating/draining with vet support (your farrier could help but they aren't really supposed to cut down into soft tissue - only the vet can do that).
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Most abscesses break open and heal perfectly well with no intervention from a vet or farrier. If the abscesses are open on the coronet band (which they clearly are from the OP's description of them as "small"), then all that is required is to squirt some form of antiseptic, preferably an oxygen carrier like hydrogen peroxide into the hole for a week or so. Calling a vet to an open abscess on a horse which is less lame than before the abscess burst is a pointless waste of money. Antibiotics should not be prescribed and painkillers are usually not required once the pressure has been released.
 
I have a tripper but he has arthritis and this is one reason I retired him(he went down on his front). Anyway off came the shoes that he had always had and I got to the stage where I was seriously considering putting them back on but I found it was the shoe holes that needed to grow out. He ended up with quite big chunks out of the sides and I was worried his feet were falling apart.

You are right to get farrier out and mine reassured me that his feet were absolutely fine. After a few trims and the holes grown out he is now fine. Tripping well you need to get them trimmed ? too long but if you are going to ride the horse I would get vet out in case something else. So farrier then vet if no improvement.

Good luck if you have a good farrier they will give you good advice.
 
I'm in North Devon so would need a farrier/trimmer to be able to come to me.

I have contact Nic Baker at Rockley and she's given me some good advice.

The horse in question was lame BEFORE having shoes off as well on his near hind due to potentially have proximal suspensory damage. He also has very mild kissing spines. I believe that this is caused by having unbalanced hooves for sometime. I will take full reponsibility for him, as I did not and still do not know enough about balanced and healthy hooves. But he is now lame on all four since having shoes pulled.

He is 6 years old, lightly competed in most diciplines.

He trips on a tarmac road which does have some loose stones in areas. It's impossible to avoid this area, as he should be on box rest but have had him turned out in a small area to help his hooves and back. I think he needs his hooves rounded as they are an unusual shape at the moment - but again I'm only going on what I think they should be like.

I have been contacted by Deborah Powell - has anyone had any experiences with her?
 
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Sorry forgot to add you really shouldnt ride a tripper as already mentioned by other posters as I can assure you when my tripper went down without warning (front legs just gave way fortunately in walk). He completely panicked but managed to right himself but it all happened so quickly and perhaps with a different horse I could have ended up injured as I was on a tarmac road. I got off and is now happily retired. It was very scary so take heed, mine had been tripping on and off for some time(about 3 years...I knew he was arthritic etc vets xrays etc and I know it is dangerous to ride a tripper...and I am stupid to have done so but hey we do these things)!!.

Good luck
 
indie999 said:
Sorry forgot to add you really shouldnt ride a tripper as already mentioned by other posters as I can assure you when my tripper went down without warning (front legs just gave way fortunately in walk). He completely panicked but managed to right himself but it all happened so quickly and perhaps with a different horse I could have ended up injured as I was on a tarmac road. I got off and is now happily retired. It was very scary so take heed, mine had been tripping on and off for some time(about 3 years...I knew he was arthritic etc vets xrays etc and I know it is dangerous to ride a tripper...and I am stupid to have done so but hey we do these things)!!.

Good luck
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^^^^^
this
and to add,
horses can trip for a variety of reasons including sore feet,navicular,arthritis elsewhere,nerve damage,damaged signal from and to the brain. You cannot just assume it is because of no shoes,or because of shoes or a trim.
Regarding abscesses, I know a successful barefoot endurance horse which had to be PTS due to abscesses continually forming,so shoeing isnt always a cause.
 
as long as you have ruled out any more foot abscess', actually checked with hoof testers and he has no fetlock/joint problems and his diet is correct, then if he was mine i would put him on bute for 5 days just to get over the footyness and if you can get him some hoof boots for the interim period. just for future ref from what my farrier told me about underrun heels is this happens when the heels and toe have been allowed to get long over many months of shoeing, so to correct this you have to keep the toe and heels short over many months of shoeing and usually results in a longer shoe giving support on the underrun heel, it is so sad to see so many horses with underrun toes simply because it was an issue of bad shoeing in the beginning. tripping could also be a sign of navicular, therefore see your vet/farrier together regarding going barefoot and ruling out the navicular first (xrays). the pic of the front foot without the white sock just looks so uncomfortable, it is like it is very upright with long heels that are becoming underrun, yet the toe isnt that long, hope you get it sorted poor boy.
 
I would invest in some boots and pads so he can move about more, get the blood pumping through his feet and so stimulate more growth. Looks like your farrier trimmed the frogs as well, like mine used to do. That could be another reason he is sore and will encourage thrush to breed, which will also make him more sore. If there is any smell at all when you pick his feet up, he has a touch of thrush, which always makes my gelding sore.
I wouldn't use your farrier again, he obviously doesn't know much about success at barefoot transitioning.
I can recommend the Pete Ramey website for info, I read for months before I took the plunge to de-shoe and haven't stopped reading yet after the event six years ago! Good luck;)
 
the photos look like contracted heels especially the hind. One of the hinds has very uneven heels too,one bulb is much bigger than the other.
 
Santa Paws said:
I've had several horses with weak feet who walked very cautiously on stony ground but I would not describe them as "tripping and stumbling". A horse should not be exposed to surfaces which make him trip and stumble, he should either be kept off them, or booted up.




I think you have missed quite a few words out of this sentence. Once you take the shoes off it can take a long time (months) before the feet harden up enough to cope without shoes, though these are extreme cases. Most horses are comfortable either immediately or within a few weeks.

It is particularly the case that if you are able to get the diet right for several months before removing the shoes that the horse is likely to cope more easily.



Most abscesses break open and heal perfectly well with no intervention from a vet or farrier. If the abscesses are open on the coronet band (which they clearly are from the OP's description of them as "small"), then all that is required is to squirt some form of antiseptic, preferably an oxygen carrier like hydrogen peroxide into the hole for a week or so. Calling a vet to an open abscess on a horse which is less lame than before the abscess burst is a pointless waste of money. Antibiotics should not be prescribed and painkillers are usually not required once the pressure has been released.
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That is totally weird Santa Paws. Those quotes are all attributed to me, but I didn't say any of them!! How did you do that?!! :confused:
 
Just to mention about the thickened areas of sole. If the sole has callus areas of thick sole that's one sign of hoof inbalance. I wonder if your farrier decided to tidy up areas like that for some reason? Anyway, a good diet and a balanced trim and the areas of callus will slough off and the hoof concavity will improve all on it's own.
 
foxy1 said:
Fiona, He/she shouldn't be tripping, if they do it means there is a problem with diet/management/farrier trimming when he shouldn't.

A barefoot trimmer can't 'trim' the horse sound, but they will give invaluable advice on diet, management, boots etc.
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As soon as her shoes came off (the first she lost in her field, so this was before any trim) she was so hesitant and sore on the stoney path coming in form the field, it caused her to stumble.

Just to be clear: I did not ride while she was like this. I looked at diet etc, I rested her and encouraged her to walk on the grass only on the way from stable to field. I also bought boots and pads for when she returned to work.

And I didn't say any of the things Santa Paws has mistakenly quoted me as saying! :)
 
OP if you can possibly get nic from Rockley out to you DO!

However, given what your farrier has done there will be nothing for any trimmer/farrier to do for weeks. He needs leaving alone aside from boots or pads to been hand walked out in :)
 
Perhaps it would be helpful to list things which make a horse sore/pottery/hesitant specifically from hoof pain/discomfort?

Thrush, especially deep central sulcus thrush.
Laminitis in all it's forms from milder inflammation to severe with the classic symptoms we all know.
Thin soles. Thin from dietary or other issues or 'live sole' thinned by hoof practitioner.
Weak/under developed internal structures... digital cushion and lateral cartilages for example.
Abscessing especially in sole.
Injury.
Arthritis...

Anymore? Or is this a pointless post? :o
 
I'm not going to quote anyone.........

Except someone mentioned thrush and/or contraction. And from what I could see in the photos I would agree quite a bit of both neither of which will make for a comfy foot fall. Any competent hoof care professional should have advised you on this and what to do to remedy (that is heal not cover up or mask).

The photos are not that dissimilar to many feet - somewhere on the blog I have some which look close. When I find the entry I'll post it.

Here we go: http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/heel-buttresses-do-they-need-support.html

Should point out that attached horse has probable IR which needs careful management.
 
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hi just wanted to give some hope from a normal person not the barefoot taliban, i had the fronts taken of my TB in october (he didn't wear hinds ) at first he was very footy and i only walked him in hand for the first 10 days or so then rode him in old mac boots for a week or so then ( all this no more than 15 mins total ) rode him in boots for half journey jumped off removed boots led him home then remounted and rode the last bit then rode whole thing took 5 weeks to build up to riding at a walk little trot on grass total 45 mins ride riding 6 times a week now he hacks out along side his mates 2-3 hrs all terrains, if i know it's going to bea rough track would still boot him tho haven't changed his diet (scoop mollichaff, 200g biotin, mixed herbs) once a day, adlib hay ,in at night out every day any weather) i bought the feet first book scared the life out of me sooo complicated :eek: - go with your gut if it feels right do it but be prepared for the long haul it's been 3 month for us and according to the "book" he'll be lame in the spring because i turn him out we'll wait to find out
 
LucyPriory said:
I'm not going to quote anyone.........

Except someone mentioned thrush and/or contraction. And from what I could see in the photos I would agree quite a bit of both neither of which will make for a comfy foot fall. Any competent hoof care professional should have advised you on this and what to do to remedy (that is heal not cover up or mask).

The photos are not that dissimilar to many feet - somewhere on the blog I have some which look close. When I find the entry I'll post it.

Here we go: http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/heel-buttresses-do-they-need-support.html

Should point out that attached horse has probable IR which needs careful management.
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Thank-you. For the short-term, what do you advise me to do?

I've been told by farrier that he has underrun heels and a long toe but also that there isn't much I can do about it, apart from the farrier adding lateral supports to the shoes.
 
loverly said:
Thank-you. For the short-term, what do you advise me to do?

I've been told by farrier that he has underrun heels and a long toe but also that there isn't much I can do about it, apart from the farrier adding lateral supports to the shoes.
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My net connection is steam powered so too slow to scroll back through all the posts so please forgive me for working from memory and perhaps generalising a bit.

OP you mentioned sole had been thinned - I always find it important not to underestimate how miserable this can make a horse and to take things slowly. I prefer to boot these cases with a nice jelly inserted (gel pad) or similar where at all possible. Where not possible/practical/affordable then for just the trip from field to stable or other short walks where the ground is uncomfy for the horse I use disposable nappies held on with a generous quantity of duck tape. Leave an air gap around the pastern or it will get sweaty.

Thrush - particularly where the central sulcus has become a bit of a canyon can be b. painful and I get super irritated when some professionals dismiss it. They should try running a marathon with a dose of trench foot and see how they like it. I am currently using either Red Horse Field Paste or Portia's Potion (1/3 manuka honey mixed with 2/3 zinc and castor oil cream. Note if you mix honey with Sudocrem because boyfriend buys the wrong stuff it tends to curdle into a cottage cheese and honey slosh, but it still is quite good.) Field Paste and Portia's Potion seem to be equally effective but totally non scientific trials so don't quote me on that. :-) I never use hydrogen peroxide or anything that will kill healthy tissue along with the crud. I have witnessed a frog entirely burned off and hope never in my life time to have to witness that again.

Decontraction - never find this goes too well when the central sulcus thrush is not being treated. Can happen quite spontaneously by simple removal of shoes. Photos didn't look anything like as bad as many I've dealt with. The trick is to sort the thrush, make sure the horse is generally comfy on his feet or pad/boot up and then allow to move around as much as possible but not forced.

Hope that helps.

Oh and I also go with the general recommendation to find someone to hand who is experienced in doing this. Nothing quite like having someone who can walk you through your hooves in person.
 
loverly said:
Thank-you. For the short-term, what do you advise me to do?

I've been told by farrier that he has underrun heels and a long toe but also that there isn't much I can do about it, apart from the farrier adding lateral supports to the shoes.
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I can tell you one thing from personal experience, that's complete rubbish. A year ago one of mine had the wierdest shaped hooves, "under-run" heels and his toes were extremely long. A year later his hooves look pretty normal. Unfortunately I've lost the before photos, but I'll pm you a link to the after shots.
 
Can you recommend me some boots/gel inserts etc..? As I really haven't a clue what I'm looking for.

I have contacted some trimmers (including Nic Baker) but all seem to be relatively busy at the moment - so until one can come out, I'm trying my best to keep him comfortable.
 
loverly said:
Can you recommend me some boots/gel inserts etc..? As I really haven't a clue what I'm looking for.

I have contacted some trimmers (including Nic Baker) but all seem to be relatively busy at the moment - so until one can come out, I'm trying my best to keep him comfortable.
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A good fit is important. Contact http://www.thesaddleryshop.co.uk/D/Hoof_Boots-(Hoof_Boots).aspx they can advise you how to measure up and do a boot loan scheme so you can try before you buy.

The different brands of boots have different pads.

In the meantime the nappies whilst not cool can be really helpful. Sometimes my very naughty side comes out and I use pink, orange or even tartan duck tape...... :-)
 
From the pictures the hooves are not getting the appropriate care.

The sulcus and frog looks thrushy.
The frog has been pared.
You state the soles have been pared.

I don't normally bash but, I'm sorry that it sounds like your farrier is hurting your horse.

If your farrier isn't prepared to change his approach, then you need to find someone who is.

Your horse will correct the long toes and under run heels given half a chance. Your hoof care provider just needs to facilitate that - often by just stepping back and letting it happen.

While you figure out your next step, get busy on treating that sulcus.
 
I don't get it, if the horse has long toes and under-run heels does that not indicate mis-management by farrier?
Farriers will rarely change their approach, unless they are open minded, good farriers to begin with, in which case you will not have such problems!!!
 
Miss L Toe said:
I don't get it, if the horse has long toes and under-run heels does that not indicate mis-management by farrier?
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Not necessarily. Barefoot horses hooves can go this way with inappropriate diet and especially sugar levels too high for that horse. Some trim more regularly and aggressively in Spring to combat this effect from Spring grass but the response is still there in the hooves.
Of course too long intervals between trims or unsuitable trim wont help and neither will shoes.
I have one of these horses and she has taught me just how dynamic hooves are and how fast diet can affect them.
 
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amandap said:
Not necessarily. Barefoot horses hooves can go this way with inappropriate diet and especially sugar levels too high for that horse. Some trim more regularly and aggressively in Spring to combat this effect from Spring grass but the response is still there in the hooves.
Of course too long intervals between trims or unsuitable trim wont help and neither will shoes.
I have one of these horses and she has taught me just how dynamic hooves are and how fast diet can affect them.
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Ok, just to be "Devils Advocate" does that not indicate mismanagement by owner, I rasp off my boy's feet every few weeks if he has not been getting his regular 20 mins on the road which let him self trim.
Is it not easy peasy, just rasp off the long toe, cut out the sugar in the diet and exercise the horse?
 
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Miss L Toe said:
Ok, just to be "Devils Advocate" does that not indicate mismanagement by owner, I rasp off my boy's feet every few weeks if he has not been getting his regular 20 mins on the road which let him self trim.
Is it not easy peasy, just rasp off the long toe, cut out the sugar in the diet and exercise the horse?
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Possibly. ;) I am still learning to read the signs so I can change things quicker. I've come a long way, I didn't even recognize long toes etc. once upon a time. I do think we all miss stuff and to a degree accept hooves(and horses) that are really struggling as normal or fairly normal.

I do agree both owners and professionals should learn enough to prevent the condition from becoming severe... there are some seriously scary hooves out there once you learn even a little.

Just to add, yes it sounds easy peasy and is for many horses but it can be much more complicated.
 
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