A question for western riders/trainers?

attheponies

attheponies

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I am really keen to take up western riding at some point in the future and have been looking at paint and QH on a variety of websites. One thing that has surprised me is the number of two year olds being advertised as having been started and established in walk, jog, lope. I appreciate that these are tough little horses but it seems really young to be taking a full size adult (after all TB's in racing only take a light weight). Is this something that is accepted practice in western riding?
 
I think it is an American thing. Quarter horses mature earlier I understand. I bought mine when he was two, luckily he had not been backed but had been started, in the round pen, on the lunge and had a basic education which really has helped. I then did things slowly myself and didn't start riding him till he was in his third summer (he was a January foal). I remember doing a lot of long-reining with him. A friend lent over him and sat on him for the first time, it has gone on really well since. He is a good steady riding horse. What I learnt from him I then 'started' and backed my entire appaloosa, when he was three. The thing about it is all the bits of education really help in the long run. It is basically up to you what you do with your animals. I have a home-bred (American) appaloosa youngster who will be two in April but he is no where near ready for anyone on his back, I wouldn't dream of it. I do a little round penning with him to help for future education and he rises to the challenge. His full sister will be three in April and I understand that her education is progressing but her new owner doesn't feel that she is ready to be ridden yet. I did loads with her in her yearling summer as I didn't want to keep a female.
I will probably be shot down in flames - but the people (in my view) that do western in the UK are lead by the example set by the Americans. I mean they ride, do reining etc, in a Stetson type hat, one has to ask 'Why' - because it looks cool! So riding two year olds ... well work it out for yourself! But I have to say that starting their education, but not getting on their backs, early, has been invaluable to me. I have two lovely riding horses that I can ride quietly, even after a lay off with the snow and ice, and a promising youngster.
 
Thank you, that is really interesting, I know how contentious riding/racing TB's at two is, so I was really surprised when I started looking at QH that they also appeared to be being backed at 2 and I really couldn't see a reason for this.
 
I have kept and bred American Quarter Horses, and I do not think that at 2 yrs they are ready to back. We do however, do lots of groundwork with them from foals, but treat them just like any other breed, except TB's.

No they are not mature at 2yrs, but do, or should look chunky, which probably makes folk think that they are more mature than they are.

Lots of breeders in this country look for top quality stock from reining lines, which is fine, but these horses are so fast and fly, you really need to be on top of your game as a rider.

The acceleration from a QH is fantastic and can be a flat out gallop in a few strides. They are very athletic and you should look at some of the cutting and racing videos to see what your taking on.

Cutting horses are like border collies and need to keep their brains active.

They are though, excellent horses to own but need time and plenty of work.
 
Even more amazingly, the AQHA has ridden CLASSES for 2 year olds now, although only after July 1st. :eek: And there are longe line classes for yearlings . . .

It's not to my taste but one thing I will say, as with so many "young horse" sport classes, the truly exceptional individuals are obviously far less stressed by the experience. It was a revelation to me to work with horses from a breeder who had produced Futurity winners, a Superhorse etc. Their WP and HUS horses just "went that way" from birth and didn't require anything like the training/drilling people with less suitable animals seemed to feel was required to do well. Again, it wouldn't be my personal choice for a horse but I suspect a large part of the reason some horses come through it without apparent ill effects is they're specifically chosen to be fit for purpose and many of the "horror stories" come from people trying to force square pegs into round holes.
 
TarrSteps said:
Even more amazingly, the AQHA has ridden CLASSES for 2 year olds now, although only after July 1st. :eek: And there are longe line classes for yearlings . . .

It's not to my taste but one thing I will say, as with so many "young horse" sport classes, the truly exceptional individuals are obviously far less stressed by the experience. It was a revelation to me to work with horses from a breeder who had produced Futurity winners, a Superhorse etc. Their WP and HUS horses just "went that way" from birth and didn't require anything like the training/drilling people with less suitable animals seemed to feel was required to do well. Again, it wouldn't be my personal choice for a horse but I suspect a large part of the reason some horses come through it without apparent ill effects is they're specifically chosen to be fit for purpose and many of the "horror stories" come from people trying to force square pegs into round holes.
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I think you are probably right with this post, the trouble will be when people are competing on younger horses and when not getting the desired result or the young horse breaks down, then you get into the situation of racing and TB's.

I want my horses to last for more than the late teens, and I feel that starting them later enhances their useful life expectancy.

However, as we don't compete, we are not subject to the pressures of having to produce horses quickly.
 
Oh, I don't disagree with you at all. I really do feel 2 is too young. I also know, that as soon as horses are backed it's a huge temptation to do "a bit more", especially for a single horse owner. I've backed lots of horses for breeders and generally they tend to do less, as in actual miles, than many one-owner horses - the program tends to be more streamlined and no one works with the horse "just because". Also, good, experienced producers monitor the horses very carefully and hopefully stop, or at least back off, at the first subtle sign of trouble. Of course, that can be a hard call, especially if the owner doesn't agree or the producer has other pressures . . .

I see the same in racing - young horses break, people assume it's the cost of doing business, so they get patched up and sent out again, instead of people seeing the "break" as a sign the horse isn't coping with the work. Sometimes the time off with the injury gives them time to grow up a bit, although presumably it would be better to give them the time without the injury! Even more worrying, it's very possible to "fix" a horse now in ways no one, not even a vet, will recognise upon inspection.

But the very top end people have no need to force horses. They get the best offered to them and they only take the ones they think can stay the course and win. I saw one interview with a top futurity producer who figures he gets offered over a hundred horses each year, accepts only 1 in 10 of each hundred into his program and then only takes 1 in 10 of those to the Futurity. Of course, some of the "failures" will sustain injury (which is my main problem) but then I guess you could say that of any program but I bet lots of the horses he thinks aren't going to be ready go to other trainers who aim to *make* them ready . . . :(

Anyway, as I said, it wouldn't be my choice. I think it's too big an ask - if the horse isn't going to make the grade it shouldn't be pushed and if the horse IS so special, isn't that even more of a reason to be super careful with it. But a lot of the "big money" in AQHA in in "Junior" classes for horses under five so perhaps they have a different spin on "long term". (That's a bit mean, as I certainly know older QHs still going strong but it's hard to gauge the bigger picture as so many people seem to be drawn to the Jr classes they get a new horse after a couple of years anyway.)

That said, I have a horse that raced at 2, went straight out of racing into eventing, then jumped, then was a mid-level dressage schoolmaster and is now a trainer's hack and still sound at 27. :) Of course exceptions don't prove the rule but the fact is there has been very little scientific "big picture" study of how early work affects horses long term so much of the evidence is apocryphal. When you look at stats from the past there were jumper competing at the top level sometimes as young as 6/7, which hardly ever happens today. Maybe they showed less and the questions were somewhat easier, but it would still suggest they started jumping big jumps much earlier than people would consider "appropriate" now.
 
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Thanks everyone, have seen a really pretty little unregistered paint filly that I've fallen in love with but might think twice about a QH -as the owner of a typically energetic border collie I absolutely adore her but not sure I'd want to ride the equine eqivalent!
 
Hi - a Paint is really a QH with white, so will have same benefits and down sides depending on blood lines. It's difficult to generalise the breed as there are so many types, just like TB's. I see nothing wrong at all in starting a 2 yr old - if you waited for everything to close you'd wait until it was 5, so the argument isn't logical - in fact there has been a lot of research that concludes that a certain amount of work at this age actually strengthens bone. It depends on the degree - we backed our horses at 2 and a half and slowly and gently brought them on, not turning them away but increasing the work over time, and they seem to have aged pretty well. Although I wouldn't want to be working and showing a very young horse hard, there are many around that have been and seem to show no ill effects. There are also many examples of horses that were left a long while to mature before backing, and have all sorts of problems with breaking down, so there is an argument for both. One thing I would recommend, and that is buying a pure bred QH, if you ever want to show you have much more choice, and there are lots of good breeders around. If you can wait, maybe go along to a few AQHA shows this season and see what you like, and talk to various breeders and trainers so that you get a good understanding of what is out there before you commit?
 
attheponies said:
Thanks everyone, have seen a really pretty little unregistered paint filly that I've fallen in love with but might think twice about a QH -as the owner of a typically energetic border collie I absolutely adore her but not sure I'd want to ride the equine eqivalent!
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As above, it really depends on the individual horse, bloodlines and purpose. There's a lot of debate within the QH world about whether an "all around horse" means one horse that can do a bunch of jobs reasonably well (the traditional, more "ranch style" approach) or a breed in which there are lots of different individuals that do different jobs very well. There is a significant difference in the types now - WP, HUS, reining, stock events etc. - and not too many horses winning in disparate events.

I'd say over all though, with a few exceptions, the QHs bred more from working lines and perhaps not for absolutely top class, Congress winning, performance, are very, very good "family" horses - easy going, tough, and bred to go along and get along and not make a fuss. I also think the way they're started plays into it, with a big emphasis on getting them "broke" and riding quietly, rather than on producing an extreme performance.
 
attheponies said:
Thanks everyone, have seen a really pretty little unregistered paint filly that I've fallen in love with but might think twice about a QH -as the owner of a typically energetic border collie I absolutely adore her but not sure I'd want to ride the equine eqivalent!
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Please don't let anyone put you off. My boy is what is termed as 'halter bred' by a stallion called Glad Im Tardee Too (or Two can't remember), which means that he was bred to stand square and look pretty. I didn't know that when i bought him and it makes no difference whatsoever - I would still buy him again knowing this. I rode him today and he does not in any way resemble the animals described in a previous post (no disrespect intended). He is a good solid 15.2 with an easy mind, oh he has his phoebles (sp) but he can be relied upon to be a nice easy hack, if anything he's lazy. Trust me if he resembled a border collie I would have sold him ages ago!
 
i agree, don't be put off QHs as they are super horses to own. my guy is really lazy, a fantastic hack and superb all-around competition horse, he was even ridden mainly english last winter by a great local english rider in kent. he was bought as a 3yr old from america so he was started at aged 2 but we have competed him since he was 3 and at 7yrs is still in top condition, having this winter off for a well earned rest. i think you have to think about the breeding of quarter horses when you buy them as they are bred for different disciplines, my guy is used as what is called a pleasure horse, so he is slow and lazy, which i don't mind at all. we did have a reiner who was much faster to ride but still a great hacking horse. he was a real schoolmaster who has gone on to teach his new owner all about western. hopefully you will go to the shows this year and learn more.
 
Yes definitely will be going to shows this summer and also plan to have lessons as there is a large western riding training centre not too far away. At the moment I'm just trying to learn all I can. I think probably the "pleasure horse" route is most suitable for me, much as I'd love to try reining I think I'm getting a bit stiff and creaky in my old age! If I'm allowed another question, why do so many western horses have POA rather than an advertised price?
 
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mine, rising three (Feb 10th.)
 
attheponies said:
Yes definitely will be going to shows this summer and also plan to have lessons as there is a large western riding training centre not too far away. At the moment I'm just trying to learn all I can. I think probably the "pleasure horse" route is most suitable for me, much as I'd love to try reining I think I'm getting a bit stiff and creaky in my old age! If I'm allowed another question, why do so many western horses have POA rather than an advertised price?
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I would suggest that, whereas POA tends to mean merely 'very expensive' in English circles, in Western it often means 'price negotiable to someone who is truly a Western rider and going to not only give my horse a good home but ride it according to how it has been trained' :-)
 
Fairynuff - what a lovely youngster, I just love the relaxed style of western riding.

Hen - Thank you, I've been really worried as I thought it might be a case of "if you have to ask you can't afford it"! This makes much more sense!
 
I can't speak to the prices here but considering how much QHs can win, my experience in North America is that they're fairly reasonably priced relative to other performance horses. Of course the top end winners are serious money but there are SO many QHs about I always found they were a relative bargain.

If you want some fun try to get hold of a copy of the AQHA monthly magazine, the "AQH Journal". It's HUGE and often really interesting. They have tables of all the top horses, sire points etc. which make very informative reading. The organisation is pretty breathtaking (think horsey multinational corporation) but they have a great many resources and if you're after a horse to do a specific job they should have the stats to help with your research.
 
attheponies said:
Yes definitely will be going to shows this summer and also plan to have lessons as there is a large western riding training centre not too far away. At the moment I'm just trying to learn all I can. I think probably the "pleasure horse" route is most suitable for me, much as I'd love to try reining I think I'm getting a bit stiff and creaky in my old age! If I'm allowed another question, why do so many western horses have POA rather than an advertised price?
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i, too, am stiff and creaky, so i am riding my daughter's pleasure horse even though i'd like to be able to ride a reiner. we did have a reiner originally but progressed to a pleasure horse who has turned out to be a great pattern/trail horse. whichever route you take, i'm sure you will find the horse that suits. good luck:-)
 
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