A real light bulb moment last night that I think could help all CR's

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The lessons I come away most frustrated from are those where I get no feedback and where there are minimal suggestions for improvement. I hate wasting money and feel really let down.

I hate crap instructors more than anything as I feel they are so phoney to be selling 'advice/knowledge' and then to be doing it so badly.

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I had one of these at PC in the winter all she told me was one horse was going very well and it was perfect - I could tell myself it wasn't and that I should sell my other horse and buy hers!!!

But now I have an instructor who makes me think ans sometimes gets on the horse and shows me the difference between what I'm doing and what I should be doing. As well as having also had several group lessons at PC with instructors who make you criticise not your own performance but other peoples as I think it really helps to see someone with a similar problem to the one you have as you can see it's impact on the horse and I am also going to invest in a video camera to understand exactly what I'm doing too.

Personally though I think flatwork wise I benefit form having weekly lessons although I am starting to get more out of my horses when I work them alone but I think this is a direct consequence of lessons improving my position as I hadn't really done proper flatwork before 12 months ago!
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But I tend not to have jumping lessons other than at PC and instead get my dad to out the fences up which makes me think for myself as he hasn't got a clue!
 
I'm a bit late to this but it most definitely rings true with me. Throughout my, and I wish I could say "long and illustrious" eventing career but I can't, I've always been on a tight budget so lessons/training have been a luxury and I've developed my horses mainly by trial and error.
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I was often using my competition results as a measure of how I was progressing and once I had a camcorder I would always sit down and go through the "evidence" with a fine-toothed comb to see what had happened and why. William, the best one, taught me a lot and was very forgiving of my mistakes, as I was of his strength of character that meant he was always challenging me to do it right, or he just wouldn't do it.
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I absolutely love being taught because it's easy, and by saying that I think I've hit the nail on the head as to why you can become dependent on your trainer/instructor: they tell you what to do, you do it, the horse goes better, simple.
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(Yes, I know there's more to it than that, especially with the lec/kerilli type of instructors.
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) Sometimes if you've been banging away at home and not feeling any improvement then a lesson will just give a fresh view of how to deal with the problem, but I'd only do that once I'd exhausted all other ways and means of trying to solve it. I also agree that by solving the problem yourself your confidence builds in your own ability, so it's more satisfying when you do then get through it.

We'll look forward to more of your reports Chloe, as I would think that you'll see a big difference now that you've had your what I call "eureka moment".
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We'll look forward to more of your reports Chloe, as I would think that you'll see a big difference now that you've had your what I call "eureka moment".
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Oh cripes! That's jinxed it!
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Well Mattingley this Sunday and I'm actually (for once) looking forward to the SJ so we will have to wait and see......
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I totally agree. I've been through all extremes really - never having lessons for months on end, to having one every week. Neither worked.

I now aim for every fortnight (not always achievable) and then work on stuff at home in between times.

It obviously depends a lot on the instructor too. My current lady has, I'm sure, told me the same thing in a million different ways - but until they find the words that click with you, it's never going to work. Now a good instructor will take the time and effort to find those million different ways of saying something to you, a bad one will keep on saying the same thing in the hope that a lightbulb will eventually go on!!

I find the key from lessons is to take a couple of simple points and get the 'voice in your head' while you're working at home or competing.
 
Hmmm, this thread has really got me thinking – which is no mean feat with the dose of man flu I have..!

As a ‘novice’ competition rider (ie been riding for years but only recently really started competing and not at any great level) I find my lessons are a hugely valuable part of my horsey life, and I am now wondering why after reading so many responses that seem to suggest many of you have gotten on better without them.

Is it because people like Kerilli, Baydale, SC etc all have so much experience and already actually already possess the tools to solve many of the issues they encounter with their horses? Is my lack of experience/knowledge that leads me to need the input of my instructor/trainer/coach/whatever you call them nowadays to bring my horse on? Or is it my choice of Instructor?

Is there a point in your competitive career where you start to not need training? What do the professionals do? Who trains their Instructors?

I have a novice horse – 6yo TB – that I have done most of the work myself, I bummed about on her for a year or so not really getting somewhere but equally not ruining her, before finding new and current Instructor and since then feel like we have progressed well without any dramas and at a steady rate. Would this have happened without the regular instruction I have had? I feel not. Would we have progressed as well with another instructor? Maybe with one who pushed me more we’d be further on, maybe with another we’d still be struggling to trot over a pole, who knows?

I have a lesson weekly, its worked into my monthly budget and is considered a bill, just like my council tax or car insurance. If I cant ride for any reason I have my instructor school my horse instead. Yet I never struggle for stuff to do between lessons and often still have ‘eureka moments’ when on my own, however I never think that this makes my instructor redundant, the opposite actually, it usually means its something else I can continue to work on and improve at.

However – I have had TERRIBLE instructors (funnily enough all old school BHS style battle axes) who utterly destroyed my confidence, something I still battle with now. I worked, and taught, at a riding school for a few years and stopped having lessons completely, even though I had a lovely and talented pony at the time as it wasn’t doing me any good. I read books and magazines and ‘taught’ myself. This left me not having lessons for years.

Anyway - I’m rambling – my point is how many of you feel the way you do and have replied how you have to this thread because the instructor you have isn’t ‘right’ for you? Do you ever think if you could afford more lessons/better Instructor then maybe it would be different? How many of you who have done well competitively but on a budget and thus without the luxury of lessons feel that if you had been able to train more you would have done better? How many of you can now figure stuff out on your own but have years of experience behind you to help?


Also, surely if your riding on your own and experimenting then your using stuff you have previously learned in a lesson anyway? Even if it was one years ago on a different horse? We all collect our knowledge from somewhere, we need to have been taught what is right and what isn’t for us to be able to get on and understand what we are doing and feeling….


Anyway – I’ll crawl back into my corner with a big mug of Lemsip now…..
 
Scarlett, good points raised. Speaking only for me: I've had terrible instructors too, long-term at times, because I didn't know any better. Some of them just weren't right for me, others just weren't great full stop, I think.
I love having lessons. My dressage trainer is only over about once every month or two but in my dreams I win the lottery and install him over here. I would absolutely love him to be present every time I get on a horse.
He will sit and say nothing at all if i'm doing alright, apart from the odd "A-ha" to tell me that that bit was exactly what I was looking for, (reassuring), or a word to remind me to correct my shoulders, head tilt, or something. I don't get a constant flow of instruction.
I love having jumping lessons too. Sometimes it can feel very different to how it looks. An experienced pair of eyes on the ground, and an experienced person to build exactly what that horse (and/or rider) needs to jump at that moment, are absolutely invaluable. I used to be trained by Derrick Watts and he was absolutely brilliant at this. I'd love never to have to jump a horse again without a good horsey person on the ground with me.
BUT if you can't have instruction regularly, knowing what you're aiming for and getting there by a bit of experimentation is also a good thing.
What is a bad thing is NOT really knowing what you're looking for, or how to get it, or what it feels like (and I had to be taught 'feel'), and drilling some poor horse in circles trying to get its head vertical and its neck arched because "that's dressage", with no understanding of WHY or HOW that happens. not aimed at you of course, but something I have seen frequently, and detest.
 
Definitely a 'light bulb' for me as well. Many thanks C.

I have been jumping 1.05 easily in lessons, but still refusing to enter F for any comps (even 80cm RC stuff) and leaving it all to my OH, and for exactly the reasons you describe.

Trainer has become comfort blanket.

Now I know though - how to break away from it - just bite the bullet and enter a comp???

Fiona
 
When I'm schooling horses (it applies to teaching, too, but it takes the emotional aspect out to talk about horses . . . particularly as I teach someone on this thread
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) I think of three distinct "phases" of learning:

Teaching
Consolidation
Testing

In the "teaching" phase I'm looking to educate the horse to a new skill, say canter departs (do you say that here - trot to canter transitions, then). At first I'm looking to use the skills the horse already has - its already established reactions to my aids - to position and encourage it in such a way that the right thing happens even if the horse has no clue what the right response is. I then reward the horse, repeat the exercise and wait for the penny to drop. I expect this phase to be messy, with mistakes and perhaps some confusion, particularly after a few repetitions. I just keep doing the exercises, tweaking them for the individual, asking more or less depending on what's needed, until I feel the horse understand the request and draw the connection from aid to activity. (This is a very distinct feeling but, annoyingly, one of those things that comes from experience.) Often it's not a perfect response - it won't be at first - but it's the understanding I'm looking for.

Once I know the horse understands the next step is "consolidation" (or refinement, but I like that word less). So, for instance, I ask for the canter in the same place, with exactly the same aid until I have a reliable response. Then I ask in a slightly different area of the school, repeating that until the horse gets the idea that the aid always means the same thing and I know the response isn't just situational. Also, I seek to refine the aid, asking more smoothly and expecting a quicker, more accurate response. I try, though, to keep everything easy and clear for the horse, making sure it's not too fresh or too tired or otherwise compromised when I'm asking the new-ish questions.

Once I know the horse canters when and where I ask under "normal" circumstances, I up the ante by "testing" my response. I start intentionally asking the horse for the depart in situations that I know *might* cause reluctance or a less than desirable response, such as in very bad weather, or next to a slower moving horse, or out in an open field. Anything that might distract or upset the horse, starting with small steps and eventually building to more extreme circumstances. I might also consciously ask the horse a little less carefully, preparing it for a less experienced rider. Lastly, I will find myself a different rider and get him/her to ask the same question - that's the ultimate test, that my horse goes as well or better when I'm NOT in charge.

These steps are not hard and fast. One horse might do two steps in a week's worth of riding, another might take many more repetitions. A horse might struggle with one phase, for personal or situational reasons, then have a total one day epiphany in another. Many horses are showing successfully while still in that last, testing phase. Every horse is in different phases in different skills and really, it always will be. There will always be some things that *could* be better while other things are so ingrained as to be almost instinctive and those things will be different for every horse.

Blah, blah, blah . . .

What does this have to do with lessons, I hear you ask? (Those of you still awake.)

Because people are a lot like horses.
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They need different things from their "trainers" at different times. Sometimes pushing at the wrong time is just as bad for progress as not pushing at all. But never testing means you never know if it works or not. So being able to use your skills outside of lessons is a combination of consolidation and testing - you're both practising and learning how to apply your skills in different situations. It will never be exactly the same for every rider, horse, combination thereof or circumstance. That's half the fun of it.
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As to whether or not people still need training at the top . . . I think it depends what you mean by "top" and what you mean by "training". Pretty much everyone I know who rides at the highest levels gets regular help from someone, although often not lessons per se. But many top jumper riders have "ground men" (and or "flat" riders) who give them input and good ground men are in high demand. (The fellow who won the last Olympic sj medal has a business partner who is a top one. When they went their separate ways for a bit he walked straight into a new position with another top GP rider.) Just because they aren't front line names doesn't mean they're not important. Often they are not even upper level riders themselves, but they have a great eye and great feel. Many other Olympic riders go for regular clinics/preparation or work in concert with a professional trainer. You wouldn't say Pippa Funnel takes "lessons" but I don't think anyone would deny William is an integral part of their training team - and vice versa, most likely.

So, no, I don't think you can say there's a day when it's no longer necessary to have other input. More often how much and how often depends on logistics and money as much as need.

Eek . . . going away now. Clearly I've had too much coffee today!
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I'm still awake TS,
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eloquently put, as usual.
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Everyone needs it but with the top riders it's fine tuning as those competitions are won by minute tweaks making a difference, not massive changes.

I've just come in from teaching: a bright, educated rider that is still riding her horse as he was 6 months ago, not how he is now, so those old habits are difficult to break. She knows what she needs to do but struggles to do it without me "motivating"
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her and reminding her. She had several huge smiley moments tonight that will be stored and that she'll try to reproduce at home, and I know she'll do her homework as she has the self-discipline to do that (she's a top level kick-boxer too). I feel inspired when I've taught her as you know the difference it makes to her and her horse: it develops her feel and therefore makes it clear to her what she's trying to achieve; that in turn makes her able to achieve more without my input.
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However, I'm happy about that as she'll always want to be doing better in competition so it's an ongoing project.
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"still riding her horse as she was 6 months ago, not how she is now"... oh dear Baydale, you could be referring to me!
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TarrSteps, wow, gosh, i've never thought about all that at all. i guess i do the same steps, but i've never thought of that structure to them.
i work on the unconscious incompetence -> conscious incompetence -> conscience competence -> unconscious competence scale for riders (and for me).
 
i do agree, however at the moment my ratio to schooling at home and lessons is very heavy on the lessons side as i have NOWHERE to school- not even out hacking now.

Thats why i crave to have somewhere to work on my own little and often so i can "feel" for myself but at the moment its ot going to happen!
 
Youve really hit the nail on the head
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I was rather proud of myself tonight as I jumped over 95cm without my instructor there !(1.10m to be prescise
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I think it's very helpful to be able to work through a problem off your own initiative especially for the competition rider as once you're in that ring you're on your own. Being able to solve problems and influence your horse off you own bat is an immense cofidence builder for both horse and rider.

However, to be able to work effectively alone you need to have the basics in place already and it's certainly helpful to have an extra pair of eyes sometimes, indeed at regular intervals to ensure that bad habits aren't creeping in or if you hit a snag that you don't know how to deal with.

The balance of both is vitally important.

But I have to say one thing I find immensely helpful is to be regularly photographed/videoed and watching it back as I can then evaluate my horses way of going and my own (fortunately I have a very snap happy Mum!)
 
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"still riding her horse as she was 6 months ago, not how she is now"... oh dear Baydale, you could be referring to me!
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Rubbish!
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It's no-one anyone knows and even if they did she'd be the first to agree with me.
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All is really interesting!
As a former and actual pupil, instructor, trainer, rider, etc..., I have a few thoughts about instructors, if I may.
They should be characterized by their GENEROSITY (apart from knowledge of course). By this I mean that they should be happy to share their knowledge without any selfishness.
And I’ve seen more than a few selfish instructors who keep some “secrets” to themselves. Some seem to be afraid of being overtaken by pupils!
And of course, I’ve seen others who just want to “keep a little income stream going”, as member nosey well said.

They should ENCOURAGE their pupils at all times, building their confidence, and not just be critical, or over-critical at all times.
Confident pupils can ride by themselves and learn, as Chloe well said.

They should tell the pupil WHAT to do, HOW to do it, and WHY to do it. And this is very important, specially the how and why!!!
By this, they will make the rider feel what they mean.

There must be a pupil-instructor DIALOG and discussion. All questions must be answered. And if the instructor doesn’t know the answer to a complicated question at that moment, he/she should be humble enough to say “I’m sorry, I don’t know, but I’ll find out and tell you tomorrow”.
Kerilli is right, “Are you here to ride or to ask questions?” is not the answer!!

They should be able to TRANSMIT their knowledge. Some are very wise and know a lot, but just don’t know how to transmit, or teach.

And if possible, instructors should be able to SHOW the pupil how it must be made. Not all can do that, for several reasons.

I always appreciate if there is a pair of eyes watching me when I train. And even better if it is a good pair telling me how to do things better! I always listen.
Many things can be written, but just wanted to share a few thoughts.
 
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They should be characterized by their GENEROSITY (apart from knowledge of course). By this I mean that they should be happy to share their knowledge without any selfishness.
And I’ve seen more than a few selfish instructors who keep some “secrets” to themselves. Some seem to be afraid of being overtaken by pupils!

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This is a point I think I have realised with a few instructors and infact ended lessons with them. Now I'm no threat to any instructor and it's not likely I'm going to do anyone out of an olympic team place any time soon!!!
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but I have experienced instructors who for some reason have been withholding of information.

Probubly not unsurprisingly the few instructors I have felt this 'keeping secrets' vibe with I have also had no real bond with them on a personal level so I don't think they were that bothered if I progressed or not, and they were all riders who had previously competed at quite high levels but now mainly did RC or PC tuition

The instructors that seem most helpful and keen to offer ideas and advice are those well established riders, confident in their achievements, honest people, straight talking, and who see each pupil as a challenge to improve not just another £30!

I now have lessons with instructors who have ridden way beyond my current level eg

Dressage instructor prix st george
XC instructor International eventer up to 3*
SJ very experineced at al levels BSJA

not because I think I'm god's gift to riding and deserve only the best tuition! but because they have a great eye and the maturity to not feel any kind of threat or jealousy or need to keep pupils down to flatter their own ego etc so are free and informative with their knowledge and if we come across a problem that is not working they are brave enough to say hang on lets change tact, and try something new
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I think Chloe_GHE makes a very good point - some of the most generous instructors I've met are exactly the sort of people novice riders often think won't have time for them but they couldn't be more wrong. Most people who are successful with horses over the long term really like horses and enjoy the process - they want other people to feel as enthusiastic as they do! Of course, there are bad apples in every bunch but some of the most "aggressive" instructors I've seen yell at/bully/belittle students because they DON'T know and bluster to cover up. They aren't keeping secrets, they don't know the answers and are too stuck to admit it. All the great trainers I know are curious and if they don't know something they'll perhaps give you their best qualified guess but then as quickly as possible fill the hole in their own knowledge.
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Anyway, I was pondering this thread today as I was going in circles and the horses were nice enough not to be taking all my brain power.:) I do think there is one factor that hasn't really been addressed - a "dirty little secret" as it were.

The fact is because horses are so generous we tend to forget that they aren't endlessly generous. By the same token, there are only so many jumps/steps in a horse and - as some of us (me) have learned to our peril - you don't actually know you're at the end of them until the end comes.

All of which means, however much we'd like to think otherwise, we don't have endless "kicks at the can" to teach horses, try new things, repeat skills etc. Of course, practice is valuable to all concerned but the bitter fact is, if you get something wrong enough, often enough you will end up harming the horse, physically and/or mentally. The worst part is, because horses are so generous, it's possible to chip away at either confidence or soundness without really realising you're doing so, until the wheels fall off enough to produce a measurable result. Same with soundness - short term a horse might take something harmful but by the time you see the cumulative effect it will be too late.

As someone wise (but irritating) once said to me, "The trick is not to learn from your own mistakes, it's to learn from other people's. It's much cheaper." That's part of what lessons SHOULD give you - the chance to learn without having to make all the mistakes yourself. Because, trust me, one horse won't be enough to make a lifetime's worth of mistakes on. If something is not going well, get help, for your horse's sake and your own safety. I can guarantee you, top horsemen don't ride around wondering why something doesn't feel right, they do whatever they need to to find an answer.

So absolutely, we all need quiet time to think and practice. But don't assume there isn't a cost to trial and error and be aware that your horse will likely bear the brunt of it. It's that old quandary - you have to do to learn, but you can't do it properly until you learn. Lessons, hopefully, mean learning a little bit more quickly and getting to "right" a little bit sooner.
 
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