A Thank-You To Some Members! Oberon, Cptrayes....

Pale Rider said:
Basically, for years people have been ripped off by farrier's and their black arts, vets and feed companies. If you cannot feed an animal it's correct diet you shouldn't be keeping them. No wonder there are so many EMS type illnesses knocking about lining the vets pockets.
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I do completely agree with you, I feel it is such a shame that they have veered off the course of whats best for the animal than what they are doing is lining their pockets.

I still class myself as a novice (owned horses for only 8 years) and for a vast majority of that I did think that whatever vets, feed companies, back "specialists". etc... say was the "truth" and almost went by there every word as I sort of believed that they would have some sort of decency where they wouldn't rip people off and cause damage to a horse.

Over the last 24 hours I have looked further into horse feeds and I can honestly say, I do not know how some feed companies get away with the claims they make, it's completely disgraceful and misleading.
 
So PR why did my appy get IR induced lami if he was just on hay and a weedy paddock ridden six days a week? I have never fed any of mine feed unless they are lossing weight....but appy has always been "chunky" his old owner who had him from weaning managed him the same as us, hay and crappy paddocks and work......so its not always the owners management that causes these things.....sometimes it is just the way the horse is.
 
Oberon said:
As I am mentioned in the thread title, I thought I should try and respond :).

I do take your point and I feel it is a valid point.

Advice from strangers on the internet SHOULD be taken with caution - we have not seen the horse in the flesh and the initial descriptives by the owner may not always be accurate (or truthful) :confused:.

Via the forum and pms (and sometimes my personal email account and text messages :o), I provide information and suggestions to HHO members (and their yard mates and friends :o) regarding hooves and diet.

Sometimes I am talking to owners who have reached the end of the road as far as their vets and farriers are concerned - and so horses who are on their last chance before PTS :(. It is quite scary and I often think I must be crackers to get involved in the first place :o.

However I do still get involved (idiot that I am) but I am cautious and very careful about how I phrase things ;).

And I always try, where possible, to hook the owner up with a professional I trust in their area who can be hands on.

I will admit there have been a couple of occasions where I have felt uncomfortable and refused to engage a pm asking for advice - such as, a horse who sounded to be in acute laminitis where the owner hadn't got a vet (I advised the owner to get the vet and get a diagnosis) and another was dietary advice for broodmares and youngstock - which I have no experience in, so I referred the owner to a professional independent nutritionist.

I don't believe I demand or dictate about what people do with their own horses - I provide information and suggestions. What people do with that is their own responsibility.
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Thank you Oberon.
You have come out as a much bigger person than those who have inferred I am an idiot :cool:.

My comments weren't about diet per se, it was about the bigger picture that the majority on this thread have failed to see.
 
slightlyconfused said:
So PR why did my appy get IR induced lami if he was just on hay and a weedy paddock ridden six days a week?
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What was the NSC content of the hay?

Someone last year had an analysis done and came out with hay of over 30% sugar.

Did you soak your hay for 24 hours before feeding?

Did you have this horse tested for Cushings, IR, EMS, or EPSM?

If your horse was diagnosed with IR, then he had a disease and that would be why he got laminitis, wouldn't it?
 
The thing is we all want to do what is best and these days more and more refined/specialized is thought of as better, especially when it's a trusted brand and specifically labeled for YOUR horses needs.
It's hard to let go of that consumer thinking and security. The switch to what is truly best for horses (low sugar quality forage and lots of it) goes against our training to feed all they actually need in buckets and forage is well just a passenger. The other hard fact to get your head around is modern bred grass and even hay can contain lots of sugars and can be very bad for horses digestion and gut.

Interestingly I was watching a cow who has been out all winter yesterday. She was standing on a hill as if she was standing on a ball. Her front legs right back under her and her hind legs pulled forward under her. Her front and hind feet were almost touching. She stood like that all the time she was in my view about 10 minutes.
 
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rockysmum said:
Not for EVERY horse, just most of them.

It doesn't work at all for my 37 year old. He is still alive because of the amount of sugar, cereal etc etc I pump into him every winter and the nice sugary spring grass which picks him up at the end of it.
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When a horse gets to 37 - he can eat what he damn well pleases ;).

I still unashamedly had a molassed lick in Obi's stable until he was diagnosed with rampant Cushings last year :p.

I would love to let him have it again, but I fail to see the point in crippling myself financially with medication, vet's follow ups and faddy diet to stave of lami and then reverse it all by giving him a giant toffee to suck on :o.
 
Just to point out, Quirky, I was not inferring that you were an idiot, I was making a general comment, which I tend to do at any opportunity. lol.

I certainly agree about taking advice on forums. Put a chifney on and chuck a bucket of water at him to get him used to having a bath, is one I remember vividly!
 
quirky said:
I'm not on about just diet though. Anybody who has looked into the 'barefoot diet' can see it is no way detrimental to any horse, shod or shoeless.

I wouldn't self diagnose myself with diabetes or anything else for that matter, nor would I ask an appropriate forum to do so either.

I'm rather :eek: that people take as gospel something a few (maybe more) people have said.

As I said, where does it stop?
In this case, harmless changes appear to have been made. Next time, will that be the case :confused:?
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I correctly diagnosed my type 2 diabetes, gall bladder infection and one or two other things, I also over the phone diagnosed a greenstick fracture and pneumonia. I have no medical training at all.
I have actually learned more about the less common symptoms of diabetes from forums and the internet generally than I have from the NHS.
 
Cptrayes, I was in the same position as you, feeding expensive feeds as I 'thought' I was doing the right thing. Shoeing every six weeks, with 30 horses a massive expense. Vets out all the time for lameness they could never quite pin down.
They say knowledge is power and how true. Once I'd got into barefoot and diet everything changed for the better. Horse's health and wellbeing at the top of the list.
 
LD&S said:
I correctly diagnosed my type 2 diabetes, gall bladder infection and one or two other things, I also over the phone diagnosed a greenstick fracture and pneumonia. I have no medical training at all.
I have actually learned more about the less common symptoms of diabetes from forums and the internet generally than I have from the NHS.
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That has got to be one of the most concerning posts I have ever seen on HHO.
 
Pale Rider said:
Cptrayes, I was in the same position as you, feeding expensive feeds as I 'thought' I was doing the right thing. Shoeing every six weeks, with 30 horses a massive expense. Vets out all the time for lameness they could never quite pin down.
They say knowledge is power and how true. Once I'd got into barefoot and diet everything changed for the better. Horse's health and wellbeing at the top of the list.
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PR you'll be chuffed, I know, to hear that I hunted a barefoot horse today who has been lame for the last four years in shoes :)

Fingers crossed that he is sound when I check him tomorrow, but if he's not it won't be the fault of his feet - totally unexpectedly, he went completely wild trying to chase the rest of the field!
 
Moomin1 said:
That has got to be one of the most concerning posts I have ever seen on HHO.
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Not sure why, the vast majority is common sense.

The greenstick fracture, a friends child had fallen from a bunk bed, child was complaining of a sore arm, the parent assumed it was just bruising but it sounded as though the child was in too much pain for just bruising, I suggested a fracture was more likely, xray confirmed it.
Another friend had a flu but had dragged themselves to work, whilst trying to talk on the phone they started coughing and I knew it was far worse than an ordinary cough, told them what I thought and suggested a doctor was needed, they were admitted to hospital for over a week with double pneumonia.
 
LD&S said:
Not sure why, the vast majority is common sense.

The greenstick fracture, a friends child had fallen from a bunk bed, child was complaining of a sore arm, the parent assumed it was just bruising but it sounded as though the child was in too much pain for just bruising, I suggested a fracture was more likely, xray confirmed it.
Another friend had a flu but had dragged themselves to work, whilst trying to talk on the phone they started coughing and I knew it was far worse than an ordinary cough, told them what I thought and suggested a doctor was needed, they were admitted to hospital for over a week with double pneumonia.
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You're a harbinger
fear.gif
.
 
cptrayes said:
I feel so sorry for people in the position I was in in about 1985 PR. I was a novice owner and Dodson and Horrel launched "Pasture Mix" onto the market. It was one of the first ever mixes. It smelt lovely, it looked lovely, and my horse loved it. I had no idea how bad it was for him to eat a muesli stuffed full of sugar, I trusted their marketing and had a horse with soles so flat and thin that he was routinely shod in pads :(

It was taking my horses barefoot that made me face up to what their diet was doing to their feet. I think it's one of the great achievements of the barefoot movement, to expose what modern horse foods are doing to horse health.
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My pony is on pasture mix. However he is barefoot. Am I halfway there?! :p

LD&S said:
I correctly diagnosed my type 2 diabetes, gall bladder infection and one or two other things, I also over the phone diagnosed a greenstick fracture and pneumonia. I have no medical training at all.
I have actually learned more about the less common symptoms of diabetes from forums and the internet generally than I have from the NHS.
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Is your T2 diabetes/previous infections and pneumonia now being treated by the NHS? Or have you just switched to a barefoot diet?
 
cptrayes said:
Point taken but at 37 you're only worried about keeping him alive, not whether his feet or the rest of him are in a fit state to do a normal workload. You're obviously doing well to keep him going, I hope he's grateful.
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LOL he certainly enjoys life, he is the one who drags us to the field and round the yard and gallops and plays in the field, probably all the sugar and cereal :D

And I hate to say it, but he has the best feet, he was shod until last year and since then is barefoot. Feet like cast iron, no crack, splits or anything. Also never had any soundness issues in the 32 years I have owned him.
 
Oberon said:
When a horse gets to 37 - he can eat what he damn well pleases ;).

I still unashamedly had a molassed lick in Obi's stable until he was diagnosed with rampant Cushings last year :p.

I would love to let him have it again, but I fail to see the point in crippling myself financially with medication, vet's follow ups and faddy diet to stave of lami and then reverse it all by giving him a giant toffee to suck on :o.
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LOL my oldie is frightened of them, or he could have as many as he wants. But he doesn't have cushings, he is already moulting and showing the signs of a lovely summer coat to come.

The other two have a much more healthy diet, so I am not completely a lost cause :D
 
JHC said:
I do completely agree with you, I feel it is such a shame that they have veered off the course of whats best for the animal than what they are doing is lining their pockets.

I still class myself as a novice (owned horses for only 8 years) and for a vast majority of that I did think that whatever vets, feed companies, back "specialists". etc... say was the "truth" and almost went by there every word as I sort of believed that they would have some sort of decency where they wouldn't rip people off and cause damage to a horse.

Over the last 24 hours I have looked further into horse feeds and I can honestly say, I do not know how some feed companies get away with the claims they make, it's completely disgraceful and misleading.
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Also look at some of the ludicrous claims made by G****l herbs about their products. It would seem there's and over priced supplement for every ailment.
 
Moomin1 - I agree but not sure if it would be for the same reasons. Having been on the wrong end of NHS competence for the last few weeks its only my experience of wound management (learnt from horses) and b. Mindedness that has kept my paws on top of the ground rather than under it. So while I am somewhat horrified that people can't always trust others and feel the need to resort to forums I also completely understand that position.
 
I think moomin1 is referring to the single post about self diagnosing diabetes and diagnosing on others behalf a fracture and pneumonia.
I think as long as the advice was then to get to hospital or the gp, there's no harm.
Had some over the internet cure or other management advice been given instead, then I would agree its very concerning indeed.
Judging by the post this doesn't seem to be the case and the poster has correctly judged the symptoms they saw and the person got appropriate medical intervention.
I see no harm in checking symptoms and deducting a doctors visit is needed.
Indeed there are gov campaigns to get certain symptoms checked out with a doctor....
 
In the summer he always has soaked hay, 8-12 hours,

When he got lami we explained to vet he was always chunky so he said about the cushings and IR test as he was a few months from his 15th birthday.......and he test positive for IR


What annoys me about PR's replies is that he/she nearly always blames the owner.....it wasn't my fault appy got lami, he body was not able to manage the IR the way we managed him (and the big snow had alot to do with that too) as he started getting older...,we didn't even know horses could get it until two years ago

I've always found your posts/replies to be very helpful and interesting
 
slightlyconfused said:
In the summer he always has soaked hay, 8-12 hours,
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SC in case it helps, I thnk the current recommendation is 24 hours, and I know of a couple of people with immensely sensitive IR horses who have to let the first lot of water out and soak it again.

IR can be extremely difficult to deal with, you have my sympathy.
 
Rinsing with clean water post soak is also v useful. One to rinse off any surface sugar and two to rinse off the alcohol. I tested one batch of hay harvested after a wet cold summer and of v poor quality which local experts had (by eye/nose) declared perfect for lami's - it tested at over 20% sugar/starch combined. It was also had so few minerals as to have no value from that perspective.
 
Talking of minerals... It might be worth reviewing your balancer SC. I am hesitantly musing my pony is developing some protection with a high spec balancer. She's been on it for six months now and isn't suffering the same level of sensitivity as before and doing great, better than ever since she first had laminitis. I have just switched to a very similar balancer that has recently become available.

ps. In the past I have had the odd batch of hay that I've had to soak twice in a change of water until I could get a different supply. She was getting a bit footy even with it soaked once for 12 hours and rinsed. The second soak in clean water seemed to stabilize her. I only did the second one for an hourish. I worked on the thinking that it was so high in water soluble sugars one soak couldn't remove enough as the water had become saturated. Just anecdotal of course.
 
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