a trainers response to a fans e-mail, Someone who talks sense!

Queenbee

Queenbee

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This is well worth the read, for all those who don't read FuglyBlog, this was posted as a link on the web, it is a trainers response to a womans email about her horses issues and natural horsemanship and clicker training.

The trainers response is frank, and very refreshing to hear. It is about time that someone actually talked some sense! I don't know who this chap is, I don't know if he is a good or a bad trainer, but I know I like this response of his!

It is well worth a read, harsh but true.

http://www.horsetrainingvideos.com/horse-training-911.htm
 
jrp204 said:
Awesome!! Hooray, someone who says it like it is. Anyway, I'm off to get my carrot stick....
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly, you could put so many tags on that entry:

How not to interpret NH and Clicker Training
How not to train/treat your horse
How horses train their owners
What to do in an emergency
 
ty so so much for posting that - that lady could have been me when i bought my first horse -I was desperate for him to "like" me.
Luckily i had an excellent instructor (who had broke him in so knew how rude he was ) who more or less told me the same as this trainer does.
Thank god she did - i certainly dont beat him black and blue but i know if it hadnt been for her advice he could quite easily have killed me by now, in fact he almos tdid.
My most scariest moment was when he got loose from his tie rope and barged me as i went into his tiny enclosed tack room - luckily i was wearing my riding hat as he tried to squeeze past me (i had my back to him) through a very thin door and i managed to whack my head back kung fu style and give him a very hard headbutt him in the chest - it was pure survival instinct on my part but it worked - he backed off.
I still dread to think what would have happened if i hadnt been wearing a hat that applied enough force to make him move back!

Again thank you - ive now joined this trainers group x
 
I want to kidnap him and unleash him on my yard. So many people think its okay for their horse to be rude because its ''just his/her personality''. I get so sick of being shoved and barged by a select couple of horses, they are efinitely better behaved with me, but only because i make them stop, drop their heads, circle them and continue over an over until they behave. Ones owner still takes a stick out with her ''riggy'' gelding (who is about as riggy as a mare) and its almost painful to watch. he barges her at the gate so she hits him repeatedly until he charges off, then she has to chase him around for ages, then gives up and gives him half a bar of those likit treats so he'll stand to get the rope on, and then gets dragged back to the yard by him. But he is an eventing horse dont you know, so he is meant to be like that....
 
Well that certainly wasn't airy fairy. I just feel slightly for the woman it was addressed to. Her intentions were good but she was inexperienced. Still like he said hopefully it'll work out well for her and Champ.
However I do think he was on the right track, having "tamed" a difficult/dangerous horse myself the three most important words are respect, respect, respect. Love, or a facsimile of it, comes later. If a horse doesn't have respect for you then you can do nothing with it.
FDC
 
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I do feel for the recipient of the post, but it is about time that these well meaning but foolish and essentially dangerous people heard the truth of the matter and stopped looking at horses with rose tinted glasses and projecting human emotions onto them.

I read this response from him, and wanted to kiss the man. Very very blunt, but totally hit the nail on the head.
 
Good for him! I had to pick up the pieces after an owner like Sue had my second horse. For 2 ½ years this mare pushed her around and scared the bejeesus out of her - in less than 3 months I had a calm, respectful horse who did what she was told, when she was told with no arguments. The original owner was astounded when she came to visit and I asked her to help me turn out some horses, after we had turned them out I told her that the horse that I had given her was in fact her old horse - she couldn't believe the difference.
 
Very well said.

I especially liked this bit "a horse's behavior is a REFLECTION OF HIS OWNER"

Good man, I hope the woman takes notice.
 
As is said, the truth oft hurts!

I have been around horses professionally for many years and have found over the last few years that more and more people are looking for the same affection from their horses as they do their dogs.

Mention on her that when a horse threatens to kick/bite or squash the owner that they give it a wallop or boss it into thinking twice about doing it again and you are slated for being 'cruel'

All to often the excuse is that the horse was 'abused' before they got it because it is frightened and because of the fear it threatens the owner when all it is that the horse needs leadership and to remember to respect the human.
 
I read this on Fugly today too. You can sign up for Larry Trocha emails and over the years I've learnt so much, even just from seeing things from a different angle. I like his approach and highly commend him for his reply as he didn't have to put himself out there like that.

Unfortunately, as with most things of this ilk, I fear it will either go over the heads of the people who need to heed this information the most or they will, like he said, label him as some sort of monster.

Still if it changes even one person's way of thinking and avoids one accident then it is worth it IMO
 
I think he speaks very well.
I think 'firm but fair' works with horses and 'nipping it in the bud' ;).
Loosing temper with a horse and scaring it is just picking a fight you can't win but the horse MUST respect us and if that takes firm handling then so be it.
Clear boundaries make a happy and secure horse. It's the same with dogs and children. We all get frustrated with those people who can't control their dogs and those people who scream at their naughty children and it just gets a worse and worse temper tantrum on.
When a horse misbehaves with a rider/handler I see an insecure horse that doesn't know wether it's coming or going!
I have seen people go too far with discipling their horse though untill it's scared and confused, that's why I think this guy talks sense as he also mentions reward.
I have to be SO tough on my horse sometimes and yes sometimes it's worrying but over my dead body would I let him win.
There's been times out hacking when I've had to grit my teeth, hang on to a neckstrap and tell him he WILL go down that path! It's often meant galloping down the path but it's going forward which is what I want so I praise him and then he doesn't do it again and he grows in confidence.

My horse is usually very good to handle and lead but once he tried it on by rearing (very out of character) spinning round, tearing the rope out of my hands and bogging off back to his field mates.
Before I caught him I got a bridle, lunge line, hat and gloves and while he tried to throw a few more tantrums after an hour of walking back and forwards to the field untill he was perfect (including stopping and starting when I said, backing up ect) he has never done it again. Yes it was scary buy there was no doubt in my mind that it had to be sorted straight away.
It's everyday and handling and riding, most of us do it without even thinking from pushing them back If they try to move while being brushed to giving a tap with the whip if they don't respond to our leg when being ridden.
It just creates black and White boundaries and I think it makes a horse feel happy, safe and secure :).
 
brilliant! what he said was very true about the horse training the owner!

My mare would be just like said Champ if given half a chance. Can't remember the last time she bit me, maybe it's cause when she did I bit her on the ear ?
And last time she threatened to kick i thumped her shoulder. she hasn't tried that since either.

and the amazing thing is, she respects me and isn't scared of me! our bond is still intact, lordy! *snaps carrot stick*

hehehe :D
 
I want to have lessons with someone like Larry. Please if anyone knows of anyone who teaches his training methods in England let me know. I would happily pay and happily learn and so would my horse.
 
broke_but_happy said:
Good for him! I had to pick up the pieces after an owner like Sue had my second horse. For 2 ½ years this mare pushed her around and scared the bejeesus out of her - in less than 3 months I had a calm, respectful horse who did what she was told, when she was told with no arguments. The original owner was astounded when she came to visit and I asked her to help me turn out some horses, after we had turned them out I told her that the horse that I had given her was in fact her old horse - she couldn't believe the difference.
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I had a very similar experience when trying to put rehome our cob, she was fantastic to ride, a bit green but really wanted to please, the people tried her out for about 3 weeks at ours then moved her to another place, and agreed a payment schedule, within three weeks no one at this new yard full of very experienced competition riders would even offer to get on her due to her behaviour with the loaners, but when I turned up she was nice as pie and fab to ride, she tested me for a couple of mins because she had been allowed to get away with murder but she respected me and knew where she stood, I took her back from the numpties and about a year to 18 months later, we sold her to a fantastic new owner who very much loved her and I believe still has her now, but the second she got there she decided that loading was not her thing, even though since the day I bought her she had loaded like a peach. The new owner actually went around saying that I had lied about her loading, luckily others had seen my mare load and set the record straight, but it just illustrates how easy it is for the horses to 'train' take the 'pi$$' out of the humans, if they are allowed. And the best bit is you can instil firm boundaries and rules for your horses without hurting them, Gah! it makes me teasy!
 
firewell said:
I think he speaks very well.
I think 'firm but fair' works with horses and 'nipping it in the bud' ;).
Loosing temper with a horse and scaring it is just picking a fight you can't win but the horse MUST respect us and if that takes firm handling then so be it.
Clear boundaries make a happy and secure horse. It's the same with dogs and children. We all get frustrated with those people who can't control their dogs and those people who scream at their naughty children and it just gets a worse and worse temper tantrum on.
When a horse misbehaves with a rider/handler I see an insecure horse that doesn't know wether it's coming or going!
I have seen people go too far with discipling their horse though untill it's scared and confused, that's why I think this guy talks sense as he also mentions reward.
I have to be SO tough on my horse sometimes and yes sometimes it's worrying but over my dead body would I let him win.
There's been times out hacking when I've had to grit my teeth, hang on to a neckstrap and tell him he WILL go down that path! It's often meant galloping down the path but it's going forward which is what I want so I praise him and then he doesn't do it again and he grows in confidence.

My horse is usually very good to handle and lead but once he tried it on by rearing (very out of character) spinning round, tearing the rope out of my hands and bogging off back to his field mates.
Before I caught him I got a bridle, lunge line, hat and gloves and while he tried to throw a few more tantrums after an hour of walking back and forwards to the field untill he was perfect (including stopping and starting when I said, backing up ect) he has never done it again. Yes it was scary buy there was no doubt in my mind that it had to be sorted straight away.
It's everyday and handling and riding, most of us do it without even thinking from pushing them back If they try to move while being brushed to giving a tap with the whip if they don't respond to our leg when being ridden.
It just creates black and White boundaries and I think it makes a horse feel happy, safe and secure :).
Click to expand...

FW, I like your approach and agree with it wholeheartedly :)
 
My mare was just like Champ when she came to me - and it was purely through her previous owner being oh so "nice" to her all the time. Mare thought she could get away with anything, and did on a regular basis.

Within a month she was a changed horse - no barging in the stable or being led, all feet picked up in any order and just being respectful of space. I very firmly believe that it does not take much to keep a well mannered horse - you set out the rules that you require, and stick to them no matter what. No ifs buts or maybes - rules is rules. Sometimes it's tough, but my mare is the sweetest, affectionate horse going now, and would do everything in her power not to cause harm to a person now as she understands the need for respect.

Don't get me wrong, she is still fussed and pampered, but ensuring my horse has everything she needs and also her fulfilling my needs of horse ownership (which does include cuddles ;) ) does not mean you need to have a badly mannered or dangerously behaving horse.

I think my friends think I'm mad sometimes that I am so "strict" with my horses, but then I just don't have any of the problems that they experience either with riding or handling. I would move mountains for my horses, and nothing is too much trouble for them, but they have rules, and are expected to stay within them. Works for me, and I wouldn't have it any other way :)
 
Loving reading this. This is how i try to treat pink, yes we have oodles of scratching various places and cuddles, but she has to obey my boundaries. and im more aware of this because at the end of the day, she is half a ton of dangerous animal and i have a child who needs a mummy.

She likes to strop, so we go over things until we do it right, even if we only do it right, and last night and tonight i managed to sit on her for the first time (the first person ever to) and she took it like the schoolmaster i have lessons on.

I dont expect the world from her, but expect respect.

When i got her she was bargy, stroppy and would be very naughty withno idea of personal space. dont even mention picking up feet.

Now she stands back for me to put out her feed with minimal reminders, she will foolow me like a dog but will stop as soon as i do and step back, she will turn with me, move for me etc. she also only needs the slightlest of tickles on her legs before she lifts them, so something is working.
 
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He could have used fewer words to similar effect. A lot of what he says is bang on.

HOWEVER - I disagree that horses don't understand love, kindness, patience and trust.

This is from my observations of horse-horse interactions. A mare loves her foal. A pair-bond (such that are allowed to form in our constant moving of herds) loves their pair bond. You can discuss the 'type' of love all you want, but my definition here is that they care for the other as much or more so than for themselves. A mare will be kind to her foal, and a good horse will be kind to a beginner rider. Most horses have patience with the young of their kind, and some have patience with our young also. Trust is when two horses graze the same patch of grass; when one sleeps while another stands guard.

Two of mine have been together for 8 years and are strongly pair-bonded. If there is little grass in winter, the more dominant of the two will share her hay pile/feed with the other. I have watched her do it. She was recently injured in defence of her smaller friend also - a horse between the two in the hierachy went for the smaller one, she slipped and hurt herself. The larger of the pair went for him with ears flat back, teeth bared, hooves threatening. She chased him up and down the field until he was terrified and dripping with sweat and I had to remove him for fear of him being hurt. Once, she tried to escape and got half way out, being stuck in the fencing. Her little friend stayed with her until a human saw and came to free her - never leaving her side. The little one is never allowed a step out of line when it comes to obedience and dominance, but they do stick together, and to an extent look out for each other.

I would never deny that horses respond best to a firm but fair hand, balanced by care and attention when they are good. But I would argue that nature gave them the ability to care for one another, for the survival of the species (mare-foal bond, and the mare-mare pair bonding that helps with survival in the wild (sleeping, watching each others' foals, etc).
 
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