A very fragile situation. How to deal with it?

LaurenBay

LaurenBay

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Ok bear with me on this as it's going to be quite long..

So about a year ago, a girl (we will call her B) started at my work, we became instant friends after finding out we both had Horses. Even if it wernt for the Horses we still have loads in common and we do alot outside of work etc. She has her own yard with her 2 Horses on, they are the only Horses there. She has an elderly TB she rescued from the meat man. The TB, seems to have a lot of issues, so far this year he has colicked once, had a severe kidney infection (vet advised PTS) it was treated but due to this, he is at high risk of infection again and constantly drips urine. Gotten cast several times and has now injured his pelvis. B mentioned to me, that Horse was very skinny and hard to put weight on. She feeds him adlib hay and he has 2 feeds a day. Anyway she invited me to go and meet her Horses. Her other Horse was fine, but I was very shocked when I saw the TB, I had to hide my face when she took the rug off. You can see his spine and hip bones and ribs, He does have a belly and she was being truthful about the feed and hay (he had tons of both, as well as a nice clean deep shavings bed and fresh water)

IMO there is a medical reason, he hasn't put the weight on. He is rugged accordinly also. It wasn't until I mentioned booking the dentist for Ruby's teeth that B admited she has never had the dentist to either of her Horses! this could be a factor of why he isn't putting on weight, it also could have been a factor to the Horse colicking. I do think she should put the old chap down, How do you suggest to someone they should have their Horse put down? or would you report? it would be completly obvious it was me who reported her as she is on a private yard that can't be seen from the road so no one else could report her. She is a good friend and I don't want to lose her, but at the same time, being a Horse lover, I dissagree with her management of her oldie (the 4YO doesn't concern me, although should have teeth done) she is a very headstrong and opionated person, she is also having difficulties at home (not that this is an excuse) so I have to be very careful how I approach this as it could end in a huge row and I have to work with her every day.

How would you handle this?
 
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Well I have to say that if it was a very sensitive issue I probably wouldn't have posted quite so much detail on an open forum.
 
she said she won't put him through another winter but wants to give him the summer
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It's a tricky situation. It seems that she does know that he's in a bad way in her heart because of what she said above. He might improve weight wise when the spring grass comes through.

It might be best to offer your support to her in the autumn for when he is PTS. If you stay on side, she might listen to you and PTS earlier if he doesn't improve with better grazing.

ETA. You can ask the HHO admin to remove this thread if you decide that posting it was a mistake.
 
Next time she says she finds it hard to put weigh on suggest getting vet out to check teeth and let them deal with the PTS suggestions? Or if she doesn't mention it just keep banging on about the teeth as that is a less touchy subject?
 
I would be strongly suggesting again that she call in a dentist. Old horses do need their teeth seeing to and she might be surprised at just how much weight the horse will be able to put on when the teeth are sensitively tended to regularly. TBH if I was as shocked as you were then I would have said something there and then.
 
I think he may be a lot better if he got his teeth done and she may not even have to PTS. If it were me, I would really hammer home how his condition could be down to something so simple and what can she lose by getting it done? I would say something like 'Looking at him, you may find you might have to put him down before the summer, but getting his teeth done may save you that heartache. At least then you will know you have explored all options before putting him to sleep.'
 
Wagtail said:
I think he may be a lot better if he got his teeth done and she may not even have to PTS. If it were me, I would really hammer home how his condition could be down to something so simple and what can she lose by getting it done? I would say something like 'Looking at him, you may find you might have to put him down before the summer, but getting his teeth done may save you that heartache. At least then you will know you have explored all options before putting him to sleep.'
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^^This, it seems a bit extreme to pts if teeth haven't been attended to and are causing issues.
 
Very difficult situation, but if you want to remain friends, then you can only be supportive, and honest in a way that does not hurt her or make her defensive.

She has told you about her horse, and has reacted well to your suggestion about teeth, if that does not work, then next suggestion would be call a vet or second opionion vet.

However much we want to say exactly how we feel to friends, it is not always a good idea, we want our friends on our side, not to feel they are judging us.

Good luck and I do hope for everyones sake you can sort it out without loosing a friend.
 
Thank you all, I will keep suggesting she have his teeth looked at. There could be other medical reasons behind it, but teeth would be my first port of call. She does really love and care for both her Horses.
 
Sorry, but I would have said something at the time. Pluck up the courage and tell her straight that the TB has some serious issues around its weight and she should take the matter in hand and deal with it immediately. Did the horse seem bright in himself though? It is that time of year when a lot of blood animals will be looking their worst especially if they are older.

You don't need to be bossy or seem off - just concerned enough to say something. A good start would be "you must be a little worried about your boy" and see what she comes back with. Do you have the number for a good dentist in your area? Perhaps find out what the charge would be and give her the full details and say "this chap is great and he only costs xxx".

Why report her when a conversation could stop any bad feelings???
 
I think I know exactly how I am going to approach this now. Thank you for all your suggestions and adivce. I am now going to ask for this thread to be removed.
 
I can not get over how quick you want to report someone who has spent a lot of time effort and money on her animals. Now have the teeth checked may show a problem but not having teeth checked is not major management issue if it was most of the racehorses in training and millions of others never do.
If the horse has problems his condition will probabely deteriorate and requir further treatment. Some vets will continue to treat, after all they make money from treatment but if she has a sensible vet they will recomend PTS.
You have seen this horse in a snap shot in time, in three months it could look a different horse. My old pony looked dreadful 2011/12 as she lost so much weight, this winter she is far too fat and now in a diet patch.
I look after a lot of sick and often very underweight people for various reasons, the prognosis is the important part. I think she knows what the end will be, and you being judgemental is not going to help her or the horse.
 
I would be truthful and to the point in what needs to be done.
If she listens and acts on it then she just needed guidance.

If she turns on you the report her and the horses to the appropriate people.

Yes you will loose a friend but who wants to be friends with a person like that?
 
Guys, it was a tricky situation. OP wanted it addressed and ideas on how to do it, she also did not want to go in all guns blazing and has already stated the owner did take good care of her horses. A little tact and support can go a long way and then the horse can be more comfortable. How many people post on here with sudden unexplained issues and have not had the mantra of back/teeth and tack checked? an awful lot!
 
Because there is a possibility that she will only hear what she wants to hear, I would probably begin with saying something about that since you know how much her horses means to her, you've had a quick look at why it is important to have your horse's teeth checked and then either mention some quotes or print a page from the internet and show her.

For example I found these :
Reasons for teeth and dental care two quotes that caught my eyes "The horse below was starving to death in a lush, green pasture because its teeth were so bad it could not chew enough grass to keep itself alive." + "Annual dental work can help prevent colic (poorly chewed food is harder to digest, more likely to cause an impaction)".
Scroll down to Spasmodic colic - "is by far the most common type of colic", "may be caused by ... badly cared for teeth".
Common health problems - under Colic, amongst common causes : bad teeth.
Equine colic - under causes and symptoms : Dental problems.
Equinevetservice - teeth care - has a list of what the signs of neglecting a horse's mouth could include.

Personally I would probably not focus to much about that bad teeth can cause malnourishment, but on that she doesn't want him to colic again. Anyhow, my reason for beginning in this end, and not going straight to the his time has came-talk, is that having his teeth done might actually improve his condition and if it doesn't, well, then you're not the only one that could report the horse's condition to an appropriate authority.
 
Suggest getting his teeth done. Are the horses local to yours? Could you suggest bringing yours to her and then having the lot done and saving money on the call out fee?

In the mean time, suggest she gives him a large bucket of fast fibre. I find it good for getting weight on the oldies with few teeth.
 
I seem to remember a recent thread about a new advice service offered, I think, by the BHS, for exactly this situation. A second opinion, or an independent, supportive, opinion.It can be so hard to see yourself when you are emotionally involved. Obviously teeth need checking, but maybe you could suggest this as well. I don't think she needs reporting, that would be so heavy handed, just someone to help her make a good decision.
 
I remember a similar thing happening years ago. I shared a yard with somebody very experienced, who had an old (late 20's) pony. She loved him to bits and couldn't see that there was a problem with his weight. He had big buckets of feed, but was so thin that his rug rubbed him bald over the bony bits. I couldn't understand why his stable smelled so bad, until the vet came to see him, and discovered that an abcess under a tooth had rotted his jaw away. He was finally PTS, but had his teeth been checked much earlier, this situation might not have happened. Tell your friend this story, its food for thought.
 
I'm not sure about your dentist but mine comes from about 30 miles away and by getting a group of us together in the same village but several yards the call out cost is shared between us all.

Your friend is obviously not shy of spending money on the old chap, feeding, bedding, rugging, vets bills. Why not say to her I have the dentist coming on XXX date do you want me to book them to come and do yours as well so we can share the call out cost and he / she could check the old chap for any sharp bits and the young one for wolf teeth etc

I normally book the dentist for 8-12 horses twice a year (some done yearly some done six-monthly), I honestly think if I didn't call round my friends / old yard then a lot of these owners wouldn't think to book out the dentist unless there was a problem.
 
honetpot said:
I can not get over how quick you want to report someone who has spent a lot of time effort and money on her animals. Now have the teeth checked may show a problem but not having teeth checked is not major management issue if it was most of the racehorses in training and millions of others never do.
If the horse has problems his condition will probabely deteriorate and requir further treatment. Some vets will continue to treat, after all they make money from treatment but if she has a sensible vet they will recomend PTS.
You have seen this horse in a snap shot in time, in three months it could look a different horse. My old pony looked dreadful 2011/12 as she lost so much weight, this winter she is far too fat and now in a diet patch.
I look after a lot of sick and often very underweight people for various reasons, the prognosis is the important part. I think she knows what the end will be, and you being judgemental is not going to help her or the horse.
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Some people would say that it is you now being judgmental. People didn't used to realise the importance of dental care but now they do. An oldie should be at least being checked every 6 months - better to find a potential problem than an actual one. As for comparing an ordinary horse to a racehorse - well they never worried about minor details of cruelty like pin firing and sticking the same saddle on any horse whether it fitted or not. Just because something is common practice it doesn't mean to say it is right. Look at the adverts for Brook you see in the paper or whatever with the donkey having had its nostrils slit - common practice. By your own admission, your pony's weight has fluctuated from one extreme to the other. That means you must be doing something wrong. Going back to the subject of not doing teeth, the farm where I kept my horse bought a pony for the kids and I started teaching them. The pony wasn't happy in his mouth so I suggested they add him to the list when we called our EDT whose examination showed that the pony had appalling hooks and only the fact that his jaw hung down preventing the hooks from sticking in his gums, when he was grazing, was preventing him from starving to death. The pony was only about 12.
 
Point taken about dentistry - but in this instance I'm far more concerned with the constantly dripping urine( where's the OMG thingey when I need one) - his teeth are a may be - incontinence is a ready made problem. Rather wondering whether the Vet has advised euthanasia and the owner has ignored without due regard. Understandable but unkind in the long run.

Mrs Firstclass had a deep and abiding affection for our old Goldeb Retriever who contracted Leukemia in old age - she was beside herself ( not well at the time ) with grief and refused to let her go and really forced the poor dog to go through hell - in the end I had to put my foot down and say enough is enough - and we all must say this when the need arises - friends or family.
 
Any descent vet on examination takes a full history, if they were treating for colic or suspecting colic. This would include asking, worming reguime , when did you last have a worm count and what did you use.Diet amount and type, when and how much work does he do and when. How much water has beeen comsumed. When did he last have his teeth checked, will also check gums and perhaps even putting a hand it to check for food lumps, hooks etc. In fact when I have had any concerns about weight loss for what ever reason and altough I have used the same practice for years and they do the teeth they always ask this and check before doing bloods and futher physical examination. And before you say but they are not dentsts,they teach the dentists.
This horse probabely has a long standing condition were for what ever reason it is not either utilising or comsumeing enough calories to gain bodyweight. To suggest because someone does not use EDT they should be reported are basically abusing their horse is judgemental. If their vet has not checked the teeth at some point I would be very surprised.
 
honetpot said:
I can not get over how quick you want to report someone who has spent a lot of time effort and money on her animals. Now have the teeth checked may show a problem but not having teeth checked is not major management issue if it was most of the racehorses in training and millions of others never do.
If the horse has problems his condition will probabely deteriorate and requir further treatment. Some vets will continue to treat, after all they make money from treatment but if she has a sensible vet they will recomend PTS.
You have seen this horse in a snap shot in time, in three months it could look a different horse. My old pony looked dreadful 2011/12 as she lost so much weight, this winter she is far too fat and now in a diet patch.
I look after a lot of sick and often very underweight people for various reasons, the prognosis is the important part. I think she knows what the end will be, and you being judgemental is not going to help her or the horse.
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Yes well said. Not sure why people are jumping on teeth here tbh. It may be part of the cause but there are so many others and as this post says loads don't get the teeth checked. She sounds to me like she's doing a good job and as for the 4 year old, the last time I got the dentist to mine he got referred to Edinburgh (Royal Dick) who sent him back saying he was just capping LOL won't do that again. Did he quid his food or struggle with his hay?
 
Could you get a photo?

It's very hard to detach yourself from things like this. Perhaps that would help if she has some slightly older photos to put side by side. I'd emphasise that you are doing it because you'd want to be told if you were too close to your horse to see a change happening slowly. There was a thread on here recently with a Dartmoor I think showing photos and how she didn't think there was a problem but looking back away from the situation agrees there was. That might be worth pointing her towards too.

Dentist can make a world of difference
 
Sm. For me it's because it's a simple inexpensive thing to do that can make a huge difference with an oldie. It's not something that will break the bank or be a huge drama for someone who sounds like they very much care for their horses. Just makes sense as a basic starting point.
 
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