A warning to owners with horses on loan

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MHOL

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We have yet again had a missing on loan case where the horse went out on loan and the passport has gone with it as a legal requirement. Somewhere in the ensuing time after things have gone wrong it has been found that the loaner has without the owners knowledge/consent contacted the relevant passport agency and through email contact ownership has changed hands.The owner at no time had been contacted and made aware of this although as the owner was probably the person who paid the initial costings to the passport agency and the vet how can this be legal or acceptable?

The passport agencies in question are non pure bred passport agencies. When problems start the legal system is confronted with two potential arguments of ownership which makes matters worse.

Owners need to advise/confirm the loan with the passport agency and microchip/freezemark and NED that there horse is on loan and ownership MUST NOT be changed.

If you have a horse on loan please do it today.
 
Good advice, although the passport is not proof of ownership.

They should make them like car log books, so both the seller and receiver has to sign the document, then the seller has a letter of confirmation sent, to confirm the vehicle is no longer their responsibility.
 
Fransurrey said:
Good advice, although the passport is not proof of ownership.

They should make them like car log books, so both the seller and receiver has to sign the document, then the seller has a letter of confirmation sent, to confirm the vehicle is no longer their responsibility.
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No its not proof of ownership but it is if you have contacted the relevant authorities and state its a loan :-)

I should point out we don't want to put anyone off loaning their horses, we offer advice so that you don't have the problems we receive every day
 
So ...

A passport IS proof of ownership (when the horse is on loan) PROVIDED you have notified

Passport Agency (and told them not to change ownership as horse is on loan)

Microchip company (and told them not to change ownership as horse is on loan)

Freezemark company (and told them not to change ownership as horse is on loan)

National Equine Database (done by associating yourself with your horse's passport and marking that it is on loan)
 
If only the PIA's would provide a special passport for loaned horses. It would work like this - Owner sends passport and a small fee to PIA who then copy essential information and create a supplementary "loan passport", both passports are returned to owner, who then hands the newly created special passport to the loaner. It would stop people transferring and selling horses which don't belong to them
 
Some PIOs already provide owners with a separate document, which is a Certificate of Ownership, which they recommend owners keep separately from the passport. The PIO will not change the recorded ownership without the Certificate of Ownership signed by the owner and releasing the charge of the horse to the buyer.

I registered my 2008 foal with the BWBS and got such a document. I am now preparing to loan my broodmare out and will ensure I follow the OP's advice (I was thinking along those lines anyway, but good to know that it is something that is actually the right thing to do).

*** wish all PIOs were as good as the BWBS ***
 
Fransurrey said:
Good advice, although the passport is not proof of ownership.

They should make them like car log books, so both the seller and receiver has to sign the document, then the seller has a letter of confirmation sent, to confirm the vehicle is no longer their responsibility.
Click to expand...

When I bought my boy, his previous owner and I both had to sign a change of ownership form, before I was recognised as his owner. It might depend on who the passport is with though? (Also, I'm in Ireland)
 
cally6008 said:
So ...

A passport IS proof of ownership (when the horse is on loan) PROVIDED you have notified

Passport Agency (and told them not to change ownership as horse is on loan)

Microchip company (and told them not to change ownership as horse is on loan)

Freezemark company (and told them not to change ownership as horse is on loan)

National Equine Database (done by associating yourself with your horse's passport and marking that it is on loan)
Click to expand...

Is this information correct ?
 
I can see a problem with this, if an unscrupulous seller should claim that you loaned the horse you buy, then they could do all the above and yet again you would have no proof of ownership. If the passports are to be any use at all, then they need the seller to sign that they are passing ownership on, and for that to be registered with a central agency.
 
cally6008 said:
So ...

A passport IS proof of ownership (when the horse is on loan) PROVIDED you have notified

Passport Agency (and told them not to change ownership as horse is on loan)

Microchip company (and told them not to change ownership as horse is on loan)

Freezemark company (and told them not to change ownership as horse is on loan)

National Equine Database (done by associating yourself with your horse's passport and marking that it is on loan)
Click to expand...

If so, why would it also not be proof of ownership when not on loan (which it isn't)? That doesn't make sense, it can't be proof of ownership in one case and not another.
 
I don't know.

The quote is my understanding of what MHOL has posted in their opening post.

I want MHOL to come back and post a reply as to if my understanding of their post is correct or not.
 
It's about time that DEFRA saw through this loophole and made it a rule/law that all PIOs had to abide by that passports must be posted in for change of ownership along with a signed receipt from the seller, nothing less will suffice. They must stop the ability to change things over the internet.
 
so is a passport supposed to go with the loan horse or stay with the owner? on my loan agreement it says passport to stay with owner as per DEFRA regs:confused: owner is supposed to make it available to me on request for things like vaccs etc:)
personally i think the whole passport thing is a complete and utter shambles!!
 
Ibblebibble said:
so is a passport supposed to go with the loan horse or stay with the owner? on my loan agreement it says passport to stay with owner as per DEFRA regs:confused: owner is supposed to make it available to me on request for things like vaccs etc:)
personally i think the whole passport thing is a complete and utter shambles!!
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The passort is suppost to go with the pony BUT im like you so called owner has the section A's passport and wont give it too me,(pony on loan till payed for,no pay by dates-complicated).then she says it against the law to keep said pony without passport but she refuses to give it too me. My guess is she isnt the real owner as shes changed her story so many times,its unreal.Im not sending her money when she lied to me so many times.
I think the passport system is useless.NEEDS some serious revision!!
 
Fransurrey said:
Good advice, although the passport is not proof of ownership.

They should make them like car log books, so both the seller and receiver has to sign the document, then the seller has a letter of confirmation sent, to confirm the vehicle is no longer their responsibility.
Click to expand...

I have a Utility horse passport for my horse from the ID horse Society, that required both me and old owner to sign it. Same for the Welshies one, and the shetlands on - but that has not been changed as the original owner sold the pony and wouldn't sign the passport, so she has had a few owners before me and I am now trying to track original guy down to get her transferred to me.
 
My horse is on loan and I left the passport with the new stables with strict instructions that the loaner is not to remove it (the horse does not go to shows so has no need to leave the yard). I also wrote at the beginning of the passport his loaners address and something along the lines of LOAN ONLY, passport and horse remain property of owner at all times. I also emailed the society his passport was with, one can never be too safe!
 
YorksG said:
I can see a problem with this, if an unscrupulous seller should claim that you loaned the horse you buy, then they could do all the above and yet again you would have no proof of ownership. If the passports are to be any use at all, then they need the seller to sign that they are passing ownership on, and for that to be registered with a central agency.
Click to expand...

^This.
 
What would be to stop the loaner e-mailing the PIA to say that now that the horse had been on loan for xxxxxxx months, the owner wanted to transfer ownership to loaner? This could feasibly happen fraudulently because it is the case that loaners sometimes buy their loan horse.
 
My advice to anyone loaning a horse is firstly to thoroughly check the identity of the person intending to loan the horse by asking to see the original copy of their passport, driving licence (both sections), a rates bill and a utility bill (not mobile phone bill). Photocopy them.
Also check with a credit reference company such as Riskdisk to see if they have had any court appearances or debts etc.
Always freezemark the horse prior to it going on loan in a visible place so that it can be seen when being ridden.
Have a contract which should be checked by a specialist equine solicitor and issue two copies with each party signing both copies in front of a witness who should countersign it and each party to keep a copy.
Always check out the new home and pay regular visits.
It is also best that the horse is vetted before going to the new home so that both parties know it's medical conbdition at the time of the loan.
Ensure that the horses record on www.nedonline.co.uk is ammended as being on loan and not to be sold.
 
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