A 'wwyd' thread! Operate or not?? Head or heart?

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Hi all

Will Try to keep ot short :rolleyes:

Horse went lame in both hinds in early may- various scans/assessments etc x rays showed suspensory ligament damage ( no tears) and mild arthritis in hocks.

Steriod inj to hocks and a course of shockwave therapy to ligaments. Carried on hacking in walk. Tuen out in smaller paddock.

Went in to be examined still lame behind and lame also on off fore:(

Vet has basically said only option is to operate on suspensories- deserve them and investigate the front lameness (MRI scan)- looking into front leg first.

I have no insurance money left and it s 1k for MRI scan- 2.5k for denerving.

Vets given 30% chance of denerve working- if we can resolve fro foot problem.

And I just don't know what to do :confused:

He's currently on danillon as he's really sore through his back now due to compensating etc but still not sound on this.

My head says there's not good enough odds on it all working and it's unlikely it will all work out- given we have 3 problems!

But my heart wants to try every route possible so I know I've tried all options and not let him down :(

Anyone want to give me an uninvolved, unemotional advice? :o
 
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Me personally, PTS.

Might not be what you want to here but if horse in pain, no healthy future, not even guaranteed with spending 2.5k.

But, you probably have decided yourself what you think best.
 
I wouldn't, regardless of insurance. If danilon was keeping horse pain free, I'd try turning away, providing vet didn't think it was no use/ detrimental.
 
guido16 said:
Me personally, PTS.

Might not be what you want to here but if horse in pain, no healthy future, not even guaranteed with spending 2.5k.

But, you probably have decided yourself what you think best.
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I agree I know its hard just had one of mine pts this morning (trying hard to keep busy to keep my mind off it) I spent thousands on him and still lost him.
These Vet's will still keep taking your money.
 
If I were in your shoes then I would go for the op. Not saying that's the right thing to do, just that it is what I have always done in the past. The only suspensory operation I have first hand experience of was 100% successful beyond the owners wildest dreams. I was in charge of the mare's rehab and it went without a hitch. We did it in the late spring so that she could have a tiny pen inside the main paddock rather than box rest. She came back into competing dressage and showjumping. She did not have any foot problems though, but she did have hock arthritis as well as suspensory desmitis.
 
I wouldn't opt for denerving I'm afraid, its just something that really doesn't sit well with me. I think if comfortable lay-off/retirement wasn't an option I'd opt for PTS. Sorry.

Good luck whatever you decided to do.
 
I wouldn't do the op personally, 30% isn't good enough odds for me to put a horse through the surgery, especially with other problems too. I'd be inclined to see what the vet thinks about turning away like littlelegs suggested, and if that's a no go I think I'd pts, sorry.
 
A friends 8 year old had sacroiliac problems and was de-nerved in both hinds. Worked for a while after lengthy rehabilitation of 6 months, now no longer able to compete at elementary level. One thing we did notice afterwards was that he pitched his hind toes into the ground as he walked. Essentially can't feel his feet. Arthritis and de-nerving? Personally I wouldn't go there.
 
I'm another who would try turning away on pain relief and PTS if pain not controlled, but then it would depend if you could realistically keep an unsound horse long term. If not then I think I would PTS, there are far worse things - I am not one who would easily come to this decision but it is an awful lot of money for little odds so I think I would have to let my head rule!
 
IN the past we have operated on the off chance, and kept horses going and they have come back. However, I am not pro denerving, as for me there are reasons why you can't race them after it has been done.
I would be getting a second opinion,as I have found that vets can bevery dismissive.
Then I would turn away on pain relief, and give it time. I have a mare with suspensory issues at the moment who is on almost permanent holiday, but seems to be coming slowly right.
Good luck.
 
I think it is a shame in these instances that owners are often in a race against time due to insurance and therefore often cannot wait and see/turn away before making a decision whether or not to operate. Often a problem could have been going on for over six months before the operation is suggested. Then they have little time left to make a decision. :(
 
I'm afraid I wouldn't go for the op either, and i know the turmoil you're going through, as I've had a horrible time losing one this year too.

My reason's would be mainly: 1. The risk of any op - unless the odds for full recovery are great, too much else can go wrong causing more pain and heartache; and 2. De-nerving - it just doesn't sit comfortably with me at all that a horse wouldn't be able to feel his feet!

If Danilon is not enough to keep him comfortable turned away resting, then as hard for you as it is, I would PTS. I'm sorry x
 
Wagtail said:
I think it is a shame in these instances that owners are often in a race against time due to insurance and therefore often cannot wait and see/turn away before making a decision whether or not to operate. Often a problem could have been going on for over six months before the operation is suggested. Then they have little time left to make a decision. :(
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I totally agree with this!

It's a shame there isn't a 'wait and see' option with insurance... some sort of 'freeze' on a claim, so you can give things a chance to settle. Some things need a good 6-9 months before you know if they are effective or not!
 
I felt the same way as many others on this thread about the denerving. But seeing this mare come back so happy and far better than ever before, it no longer bothers me if a horse is not in hard work or competing at high levels. She went from being a nappy, rearing and falling over backwards, freaking out with the farrier, you name it, to a calm and content, useful horse. She's now seventeen and still going strong five years later.
 
montysmum1 said:
I totally agree with this!

It's a shame there isn't a 'wait and see' option with insurance... some sort of 'freeze' on a claim, so you can give things a chance to settle. Some things need a good 6-9 months before you know if they are effective or not!
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Yes, you would think it would be cost effective too as some horses would just come right with time and doctor green.
 
What is the denerving for? if its the suspensories that only stops them feeling a small part of the leg and they can feel their feet so if it was just the suspensories I would say go for the op however with the very low chance of success and the other problems I would either retire if it was an older horse and able to be pain free on low levels of danilon or pts quietly at home but its your horse and only you can decide :(
 
Has your vet nerve blocked the hocks? This is a good indication of how well he would respond to the operation.

TBH I think he has too many problems to deal with to take the gamble. If he's sore in the back it may be sacroilliac, also difficult to treat ideally needing work along side more steroid injections.
 
My mare was diagnosed with PSD in April, she also has arthritic changes in her hocks, as well as this she had a very noticeable head nod on her front right when trotted up. She was very very lame I may add, even my very non horsey brother pointed out she had "a sore leg and a bad limp".
We blocked her suspensory, and she came almost 100% sound so after much soul searching I decided to go for the op, she had it in July.
I left her at the vets for four days as she is a madam for pulling off bandages, and then she came home. I did not box rest her, it was not possible due to "yard issues" I made a tiny paddock for her in her own field that she shares with my daughters mare, Im lucky the weather was on my side and had four weeks of no rain. She then got a larger space, again only with our other mare for two more weeks. I then moved her to another yard with much better facilities and 24 hr supervision, I could stable her here, and more importantly was given the go ahead to take her back into work.
I never ever thought I would be able to ride her again, and it was fantastic to be back on her. The best part being she is 100% sound. we are hacking most days, have had a little school, but nothing too much, she is such a happy horse now, so full of life and feeling better than she has ever felt.
Two days ago I went to catch her and she saw me coming and cantered to the gate, then our other girl started to kick her heels up as well and it ended up with the two of them having a gallop round the field..she looked amazing! YO was watching and laughed saying she wouldn't be able to move like that if she was sore!
I know I am one of the lucky ones, and it is early days, but I just wanted you to hear a positive story. x
 
Personally I don't like the idea of de-nerving at all and it at lot of cases it only has a degree of success.

I would much rather take the shoes off and let the horse have time turned away in a field and see how it faired. My sister's horse had PSD in one hind, had some weeks box rest and restricted paddock rest last year and the was back in to being worked, building up gradually. He was doing fine until he then went and strained/sprained (we think) a tendon in his other hind so cue more box rest and 2 weeks at a rehab centre for spa therapy. This was all on insurance and we have our own land so don't have concerns over paying livery bills for a horse that could have ended up as a field ornament.

The thing that i don't get about de-nerving is that, ok the horse may go sound because it can't FEEL what's going on but this doesn't sit right with me to be honest as, in my mind the damage is surely still there amd you're just going to eventually make it worse. Also the nerves can grow back as they can with the same op that is/was performed with navicular and if that's the case and the same nodules can also form, this causes more discomfort and there is nothing that then can be done.

I don't think people consider how much good just giving the horse time off can do. Restricting turn out helps as they can't hoon about but they are not confined to a stable 24/7 (which wouldn't help teh srthritis anyway).

It's possible the horse has an abscess in the front due to compensating for the hind limb lameness but it could be something more serious. I guess how much money you are willing to spend/have left on the insurance may determine whether you can investigate this further or not. Ultimately, if the horse is in pain I think I would rather PTS than mask the pain in any way.
 
have similar issues with my husbands tb. The vet has said that although they could denerve they didn't like the idea as there was more than 1 problem. I know we are going to make the decision to PTS within the next year. I certainly wont be denerving, sorry
 
It is a falacy that the nerves are always hurting for a reason. In cases such as kissing spine and suspensory desmitis, they are getting pinched. De nerving cures this as the nerve is not getting pinched any more. I had one of my teeth de nerved through root canal surgery. The nerve was just 'kicking off' and had no function.
 
Wagtail said:
I think it is a shame in these instances that owners are often in a race against time due to insurance and therefore often cannot wait and see/turn away before making a decision whether or not to operate. Often a problem could have been going on for over six months before the operation is suggested. Then they have little time left to make a decision. :(
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Totally agree Wagtail. Insurance corrupts the treatment options for horses with long term issues. I wonder how many are put down because the insurance runs out of time rather than the horse running out of time?
 
If it where me I would turn away unshod in a big hilly bareish field with a companion and a lump of rock salt keep an close eye on his confort level if he was very sore I would PTS .
I would not operate .
I an very sad that you and your horse are in this situation.
 
Goldenstar said:
If it where me I would turn away unshod in a big hilly bareish field with a companion and a lump of rock salt keep an close eye on his confort level if he was very sore I would PTS .
I would not operate .
I an very sad that you and your horse are in this situation.
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This ^^ is what I would do. Are you in a position to buy another/ have another to ride/compete/progress with?
 
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