A 'wwyd' thread! Operate or not?? Head or heart?

i wouldnt put a horse through that....

Im having one of mine pts as we just cant solve her issues and theres no money left in the pot...i love her dearly but we cant go on with "whats if's"....

so no - im sorry im in camp "pts" as there are fates worse than death.
 
I opted for surgery with my boy but we then went through three years of trying to get him back into any sort of work and in essence all we did was prolong the heartache.

My advice to you having been in exactly your position would be to pets sleep now and find something else that you can enjoy
 
Thank you all for your thoughts.

TBH the denerving doesn't sit right with me either- I'm a science lecturer and struggle understanding why you would just block the problem? I think if the surgery was to go and remove the problem I would be much happier about it?

I can scrape the money together, I would pay 10k if I knew it would make him right but I just don't feel convinced it will work :(

He's not hopping lame which makes the pts matter harder- he's just uncomfortable (if that makes sense?)

I've already had remarks from 'friends' that I can't have him pts as he's a healthy? Horse. He's not ill, he's injured- which seems to make it harder :(
 
montysmum1 said:
I totally agree with this!

It's a shame there isn't a 'wait and see' option with insurance... some sort of 'freeze' on a claim, so you can give things a chance to settle. Some things need a good 6-9 months before you know if they are effective or not!
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I know! It would probably solve the insurance companies money too in the long run, but they're all about "get it over with now"! They're the same with cars, writing off things that could be fixed..

I'm another who would go down the old fashioned turning away route if it was at all possible. Easy for me to say with my own yard, I know. If not PTS. Niceto hear all the success stories though.

Good luck. What a decision to make.x
 
I have a horse with previous PSD (3 years ago). At the time of the PSD, he was also lame in both front feet (as well as the affected hind) and the vets mentioned early stage arthritis. We went down the shockwave / 16 weeks box rest treatment for PSD, but also got his back treated as he was so sore. The front leg problems seemed to go away at the same time, and this front lameness was almost certainly down to back issues. If a horse is lame on two or three legs, I would immediately look to the back. Without my brilliant back lady, the vets would never have realised it and carried on uselessly playing about with the fronts.

In case it is of any interest this horse is now sound behind and in front aged 14, and arthritis hasn't yet appeared to trouble him.

You don't mention in your thread how important this horse is to you, and whether you would happily keep him if he couldn't achieve his previous level of work, or be competitive, etc etc. Your tone makes me think you care very much for him (hugs).

Only if I had vast funds would I spend as much as you mention on a very uncertain outcome. But I would perhaps try the conservative route, with much use of painkillers (and start now with the joint supps and perhaps nobute or similar for the arthritis). At worst you will lose some time but feel you have tried for him.

I do think the vets with encourage you to do everything you can - sometimes too much.
 
I'm not one for wanting to encourage hope where all seems lost but have you had a second opinion? I would want to know what the vet might expect to find from an MRI on the front end? A second opinion from another vet might give you some other options.
Psd can be a symtom of front foot lameness and as you know the SI problem is associated with hind limb lameness so your horse is caught in a constant circle of pain. :(
If the vet suspects soft tissue injury in the front hoof then if you are able to I would take your horse barefoot and turn away for at least six months. If you are able, employ the services of a great equine chiropractor to work on your horses SI area regularly and then reasses in 6 months to a year. I would definately not spend money on a £2.5K operation with just a 30% chance of success. If you have money to spare I would investigate the ARC equine unit as it costs a great deal less than the surgery and the makers are very sure of it's use for psd. (I am facing very similar issues to yours and am researching the unit as a possibility for my horse)
However, I really do wish you well with whatever you decide to do.
 
Horses24-7 said:
Hi no couldn't afford another as he's on livery and costs me an absolute fortune to keep- he's 17hh and very high maintenance. I'm not convinced he would cope being out 24/7?
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There are very few horses who truly can't cope being out 24/7. Most horses adapt to it absolutely fine and it is us humans who think they are not 'happy' and want to be inside. In my mind that's rubbish. Provided a horse has ample space, companions, food, water and shelter (and adequate rugs if needs be) then they manage fine. It is how they are designed to live after all. We have 5 who live out 24/7 the majority of the time. Only two come in at winter overnight (and, in reality they probably don't need to to be honest). The other 3 - a 28yo TB, a 26yo 14.2hh and my 3 yo coloured stay out in all weathers. The older ones do get rugged in bad weather but the 3 yo doesn't unless really horrendous.

Yep, they seem to love to come in to the stables sometimes but are perfectly happy outside with their field shelter, numerous trees and hedges and plentiful hay.
 
Oh hunny. A painful place to be.

My last horse couldn't have the op, she was too far gone. I had researched and decided against the de-nerving anyway: I didn't like the that the nerves can grow back, nor that there is a reason for there being a nerve there. Within two weeks of being back from the vet, early October, she couldn't stale easily and her turns were in large circles. The winter was coming and the mud was just going to make it worse. Damanged suspensories don't like mud. I had her put to sleep.

Your lad is lovely, but he has other issues. He's in pain. I would put to sleep. Sorry.
 
I suppose it might depend on the horses age- I wouldnt go shelling out more money without there being a very good chance of success. If I had a suitable field, and the horse fairly young, Id try turning away for a few months.......
 
MrsMozart said:
Oh hunny. A painful place to be.

My last horse couldn't have the op, she was too far gone. I had researched and decided against the de-nerving anyway: I didn't like the that the nerves can grow back, nor that there is a reason for there being a nerve there. Within two weeks of being back from the vet, early October, she couldn't stale easily and her turns were in large circles. The winter was coming and the mud was just going to make it worse. Damanged suspensories don't like mud. I had her put to sleep.

Your lad is lovely, but he has other issues. He's in pain. I would put to sleep. Sorry.
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Thank you- your opinion means a lot x
 
I am becoming less interventionist over time. I think often the vets keep them going because they can, rather than it being in the animals best interests (seen this happen with small animals too). I do not like the idea of denerving and also think that a 30% chance is nowhere near good enough, either for the horse or the money.
Some alternative therapies help with pain (used a vet who uses accupuncture on our mare, had neck issues and now fine) which may be worth looking into. If he can't be kept comfortable with pain relief, then I would pts.
 
I am very sorry to hear this, I would go with retirement if possible and I agree with ladyt that I don't really know any horses that couldn't live out with shelter and rugs. If they were that bothered they'd spend all their time in the shelter which they rarely do.

If it wasn't possible or too much pain I would PTS but I would find it impossible to come to that decision very quickly and probably keep them on pain relief until I was ready unless their condition was too bad to do so.
 
My horse was the same as yours - hind limb PSLD, bilateral spavin, arthritis in one fetlock and navicular in both fronts. I took the shoes off, gave her six months off work and slowly brought her back into work starting with leading out and long-reining. She did not have box rest - her turnout was anywhere from an hour per day, to six hours per day, weather dependant as it was in winter. The only thing which affects her now is the arthritis in the fetlock so she is stiff when she first goes out of her box - she is better when she is turned out. She has regular physio (don't know if this helps her or not!) and her workload is light - I appreciate she will never be up to heavy work or jumping. But I hack her and she is schooled lightly. I am hoping to get her to some unaffiliated dressage eventually.
If I were you, I would turn away and hope for the best and if no improvement, then consider PTS, but that's not to say that's the best option for everyone or every horse. Good luck. Whatever decision you make I hope it goes as well as possible.
 
Personally I would PTS. To be honest its probably going to be the inevitable outcome whether u operate or not by the sounds of it. I would rather PTS now than do it after subjecting my horse to painful procedures. Although you say that you want to have 'done everything' you can - I think you already have. You could go on forever saying you could have tried this or that but you need to be realistic, practical and ethical. Best wisheS, I have been there too and its terrible but the sooner the decision is made the less the horse suffers and the sooner you can move on and start to feel better again.
 
Goldenstar said:
If it where me I would turn away unshod in a big hilly bareish field with a companion and a lump of rock salt keep an close eye on his confort level if he was very sore I would PTS .
I would not operate .
I an very sad that you and your horse are in this situation.
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This is very close to what I am doing with my horse. Who has PSD and other issues. He is field sound and happy in a large hilly field, barefoot. And is loving not working and being herd boss.

What happens next remains to be be seen.
 
Horses24-7 said:
Thank you all for your thoughts.

TBH the denerving doesn't sit right with me either- I'm a science lecturer and struggle understanding why you would just block the problem? I think if the surgery was to go and remove the problem I would be much happier about it?
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An explanation of how PSD denerving works:-

My understanding is there is a narrow space between the joint where the nerve and the PSD ligament run pass through.

One the PSD ligament has been inflamed / damaged it becomes larger due to scar tissue. This means it presses on the nerve as there is a lack of space, and causes pain.

The PSD ligament is unlikely to shrink even if the cause of the original injury is fully removed, even after shockwave or box rest or field rest (if it is hind PSD)

Normal PSD surgery is a neurectomy (to cut nerve) and a fasciotomy (to create a bit more space in facia for ligament).

In terms of de-nerving it is only a tiny nerve that only impacts on feeling in a tiny area. The rest of the leg has normal feeling.



In my understanding is it only worth doing the surgery if the horse is sound when the PSD ligament is blocked.

PSD is nearly always a secondary condition, and if you haven’t removed the original cause surgery isn’t likely to be successful.

Possibly causes – working on deep surface, not working enough on firm surface, poor foot balance, conformation, injury in field, compensation for hock or SI pain or ulcer pain.

In your case, if your horse isn’t sound with the PSD nerve blocked I wouldn’t consider the surgery.

My horse has too many other issues to have the surgery.


My 17hh, hard to keep weight on, dressage horse is loving living out, coping barefoot. Yours might surprise you.
 
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