Aaargh, think I might have to PTS my in-foal mare

You have had a lot of excellent advice on here. I wouldnt/couldnt PTS - I would try to see what more can be done - hasnt the vet said he would continue trying but its your call?

If Im reading this right - it boils down to the cost and expense? are you insured?
 
Dancing Queen said:
You have had a lot of excellent advice on here. I wouldnt/couldnt PTS - I would try to see what more can be done - hasnt the vet said he would continue trying but its your call?

If Im reading this right - it boils down to the cost and expense? are you insured?
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No, third party only, as most people with more than 2 I suspect, and ultimately there has to be an element of boiling down to cost. Where is the cut off? £10K... £15K? I think the issue in my head is the foal, there are 2 lives here at stake but there has to be a limit surely. The current (vet) option is graft at £silly or PTS. I have another one which is to chuck out and let her take her chances, which I think might be fairer on both than PTS.
 
Take some photo's of it tonight, so that we can compare the degree of healing....

I've seen some pretty hideous injuries come right, they just need time, and really careful handling.
 
scarymare said:
No, third party only, as most people with more than 2 I suspect, and ultimately there has to be an element of boiling down to cost. Where is the cut off? £10K... £15K? I think the issue in my head is the foal, there are 2 lives here at stake but there has to be a limit surely. The current (vet) option is graft at £silly or PTS. I have another one which is to chuck out and let her take her chances, which I think might be fairer on both than PTS.
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The foals life is why I *personally* would continue to persevere. How many Vets opinions have you had?
 
I followed your other post and have now read this one, I feel so sorry for what was an accident. My gut feeling is not to lose both of them as it has been a lot you have been through with them now. If you finish the pregnancy then re-asses the mare on her own, not thinking of another life as mentioned previously the foal may be able to find an 'adopted' mum. Good luck with everything and I really do hope things go up hill from now!
 
I cant see your pictures due to my old work computer but a couple of years ago my horse cut the inside of his hock down to the bone on wire. The wound was approx the size of the palm of my hand. His leg was bandaged for a couple of weeks but when it was allowed to be left open, the vet gave me a laser pointer pen and told me to use it on the outside edge of the wound for about 10 minutes per day, I was also given a white, lime based solution to put on every day which stopped any proud flesh growing. The hair grew back and everything, today he has a very small scar which you wouldnt notice unless you went poking around for it!

Keep going with your mare!
 
Dancing Queen said:
The foals life is why I *personally* would continue to persevere. How many Vets opinions have you had?
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The original vet, the practice partner of the original vet (when I complained) and the new vet who is very highly regarded (3 opinions all different) He has been in discussion with the University which is where the skin graft was suggested. I just think that transporting her 200 miles for her to have (under general) skin removed from her shoulder and grafted onto a mobile (very) joint is too much and not just money. My understanding is that once she moves into the last 3rd of her term then medication becomes (more) dangerous than before. She currently has not granulous bed to graft too anyway.
 
scarymare said:
The original vet, the practice partner of the original vet (when I complained) and the new vet who is very highly regarded (3 opinions all different) He has been in discussion with the University which is where the skin graft was suggested. I just think that transporting her 200 miles for her to have (under general) skin removed from her shoulder and grafted onto a mobile (very) joint is too much and not just money. My understanding is that once she moves into the last 3rd of her term then medication becomes (more) dangerous than before. She currently has not granulous bed to graft too anyway.
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Is it not possible to do an alternative type of skin graft other than taking a whole piece of skin from one area and stitching it on the affected area? It may be too large to consider other options but there are many ways of doing a skin graft? Did they offer you any alternative methods?
 
I had to PTS a 5 year old because of a similar injury. We tried treatment but after about 2 weeks the wound stopped healing properly and the pony was getting very wound up about treatment and the sedative the vet had to give him was at maximum but he was still very agitated. It was very difficult at the time but was definately the right decision.
 
The mare's welfare must come first and it sounds like the best thing for her now, given the vast expense which you don't have, would be to PTS
 
Good luck!!

As has already been said, her body is busy growing her foal, and not one bit concerned about mending her, I went through the same while pregnant, a broken hand that should have mended it weeks took months.

I hope that when her body has finished developing her foal, and is then only putting weight on it, then her body can relax and start to mend her ( just what happened to me)

Make sure all her vit and mineral needs are met, silver and manuka honey dressingsmay help.

Again good luck or a 3 of you cx
 
This is a desperately sad thread. Poor you, poor mare and foal. :(

Don't feel you should apologize for it coming down to numbers, it does for most of in truth. Do what's right for yourself as well as your animals and that may be pts before you put too much of a burden on your own finances.

I know if my Mollie was so injured she was going to cost me £Ks I'd have to have her pts. After all, if we break the bank, they suffer too!

My heartfelt sympathies go to you. A dreadfully hard decision for you.
 
Give the honey dressings a go for now.
My mare had awful pressure sores and lymphangitis from a Robert jones bandage. The healing with medical honey dressings (probably same make as the tubes on your table) has been excellent. In a month a 2" x 4" pressure sore is down to two tiny 3mm ulcers and hair is growing back in.

If is smells yucky I would go for high dose penicillin as the bugs that cause that smell are usually very sensitive. It won't harm the foal as penicillin is safe in pregnancy. Metronidazole gel will also help treat the infection locally - the amount absorbed will not be detrimental to mare or foal.

I will PM you my contact details as my 'day job' often involves advising on the management of some horrible wounds in humans. There are a lot of cutting edge treatment modalities that are not in the vet lexicon as yet that could potentially help.
if you have pics send them to me - the treatment that can help in some really dire wounds is actually fairly cheap and sounds as though this wound comes into the type that it works on. I can send you links to some of the papers on its use that your vet could look at and can advise on how to prepare the stuff.
 
Hi, We have experanced similar issues in breeding!

Time is a very good healer!

As some one has mentioned in the previous posts look hard at her feed. I had one mare with horfic injuries and it was touch and go if she was going to survive, she stood in the same spot on the yard for 4 days with food and water been carried to her, by accident, it was the weekend and we were running low on feed we started to feed her some of the stallions Blue Chip dynamic, I am convinced that in this situation it helped along with the hydrating the wounds. mare survived and went on to have a fab foal (Springs Spirit).



Good Luck
 
Have you tried Meditek Dressings from Fabtek Solutions? (I just read the post about wound dressings with silver) they've had great results and there are some before and afters on their website
 
haven't yet read all post but poss a idea.. if your mare is kept long enough to foal would the mare and foal bank help? they may be able to find a suitable mare to bring up your foal, i dont know the in and outs of how it works but might be worth a quick look.
 
It's a very nasty wound - but I HAVE seen worse - and in exactly the same place. Thankfully it was in Australia where you can get Lotagen concentrate solution! This stuff is brilliant and I would be fairly sure you could get it online - see http://www.animalcare.net.au/p/853160/lotagen-concentrate---1l.html Don't bother with the little bottles - you'll need to continue treating it daily for at least 3 months

It's not cheap - but you actually don't use much in a daily treatment - I would estimate no more than 10 mls per treatment. The horrible smell is necrotic (dead) flesh and you need to get rid of this. Lotagen does it better than anything else I know but until you can get some, I'd be washing the wound daily with dilute Hibiscrub (then rinsing thoroughly!!), patting dry with paper towel and then slather it in Dermagel or something similar. Snip off any obviously dead bits. There is NO way it will heal at all - let alone properly - until you get rid of the necrotic tissue!

3 weeks is NO time at all to see a start of proper healing in a wound like this - far too soon to be writing her off or considering expensive skin grafts!!

The similar - but worse - injury I treated in Oz was gaping wide open with the bone clearly visible - though thankfully with no damage to the periosteum. It took about 3 months for new flesh to granulate and fill the space - and within 6 months there was just a fine line scar!! The ONLY treatment it had was daily Lotagen! I also healed up an equally extensive wound to a horse's chest - which was so deep you could fit four or 5 fists inside it! Again, healed with no proud flesh and minimal scarring - just with Lotagen! Both horses returned to work in less than 12 months!

My own vet used Lotagen when working in Australia and agreed with me that there is NOTHING as good available in this country. I believe it IS available in Germany if we have any German residents on the forum????
 
scarymare said:
No, third party only, as most people with more than 2 I suspect, and ultimately there has to be an element of boiling down to cost. Where is the cut off? £10K... £15K? I think the issue in my head is the foal, there are 2 lives here at stake but there has to be a limit surely. The current (vet) option is graft at £silly or PTS. I have another one which is to chuck out and let her take her chances, which I think might be fairer on both than PTS.
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That is what I would do, kill or cure, pardon the pun.

Had a look at your earlier pics and I've seen worse from hunting injuries that have healed well.
I'd try a different AB, buy tins and tins of proper terramycin spray, use that and turn her out, spray 2 - 3 times daily. If you don't want to use that, use honey or protocon, also feed her comfrey, they don't call it knit-bone for nothing. Give her a couple of months of good grazing and hay/haylage but don't let her get too heavy; see what happens. It won't cost you another fortune but it might just save her so you can at least save her foal.
 
My gelding had a similar wire injury - skin then sloughed off his entire hind YUK . We injected antibiotics twice a day for ages and on the wound itself used the highest grade manuka honey three times a day. He did this about a year ago and it's still not pretty and will always be an ugly leg I think but he's sound on it and no longer any risk of infection
 
I'm a firm believer that they tell you when they've had enough, and by the sounds of it this is not the message she is giving you. Completely understand the money issue and would support you in not spending money you haven't got on this. I'm a huge fan of salt water, and would also second trying other suggested alternative treatments.
Good luck, I really hope you win this battle. x x
 
Scarymare,

I am so sorry for what you are going through. I think you are handling this situation very well considering what's at stake. My broodie, who hasn't been put in foal in 2 years, is a member of my family. I have had her for 9 years. But if I was facing the exact same thing I probably would put her down. Because as an owner I have to make decisions not only for her but my family too. Just because you are not willing to get yourself into huge debt does not mean you haven't tried and that you aren't doing your best. If it was a guaranteed success, then of course by all means work away. But sadly it isn't. And then shipping her for the surgery is more stress on her too.

For me, it's always my mare. I don't "know" the foal yet and I can't bogged down with well it's 2 lives at stake. When you bred her she was healthy and then crap happened. No way of predicting that. So I would never keep my mare going in a situation that was bad for her just to save the foal. But that's probably just me.

I have no good advice on what you should be doing. I have been blessed so far in not having to make these decisions. But as long as I continue to own horses, it will happen. I just have to look at what the horse can take and the financial aspect as well. You see sometimes I feel fortunate not to have loads of disposable income. You know why? Because it is never a money issue and horses get put through things that maybe they really shouldn't because we can afford to. They are not cats and dogs which can handle these types of miracle cures better. Yeah sure we hear about the good stories of horses that triumphed but very few of the stories in which it never really did get better and horse had to be put to sleep anyway even if a year later. And I know there are many stories on here saying it can and will work out, look. But seriously every wound is different even if it looks the same or similar.

So right now you are wearing the worst cap possible. The responsible horse owner decision cap. All I can offer you is hugs and cyber support. This is really tough.

Hugs,
Terri
 
As someone who has just hit 4 figures of vets bills on a second-hand-non-breeding fluffy rodent you have both my sympathies and also a little 'get real'ness. :-S

Based on the numbers you probably wouldn't have been breeding from a broken mare (unless with fantastic breeding/comp record) in this climate anyway. So, unless this is a business for you, which it doesn't sound like it is, that isn't necessarily a helpful equation to make big decisions on.

There is loads of good advice on the healing side here and I wish you and your mare the best of luck.

On the numbers, well, as an example, four (I think you said you have two or three horses plus the unborn foal) lots of colic surgery would be how much?

Just an example, but there are plenty of other things you'd probably want to treat that are expensive too.

If you can't afford to fork out for that, and wouldn't want to PTS for cost reasons, then perhaps best to insure where you can and maybe consider selling one or more of the others to fund whatever treatment turns out to be necessary for mare in foal?

Animals are very expensive in unpredictable chunks. Insurance premiums help with spreading that cost into regular managable portions. So, you pay for the service.

If you take the riskier but cheaper option (as I do with aforementioned rodent) of not insuring sometimes you have to bite the bullet and write the cheque.

Good luck whatever you decide.
 
I read that you were feeding pasture mix and adlib hay. If this were me, I'd be shoving every vit/min/supp to help with healing and to aid her in carrying the foal down her. Google them and buy them!

I like you couldn't afford that amount of money, but i'd damn well try every other option until her wellbeing was being put at risk/she was suffering.

Sounds like a carppy situation and I really feel for you :(
 
I would like to know what ill effects the sedations so far could have on the foal. If there are any possible side effects then I think you need to take that into account - no point saving a non-viable animal anyway IMO.

Also think hard about going into debt for this - I know I wouldn't, as hard as it is.
 
scarymare said:
Thanks for all the replies. Thankfully she is remaining very positive in herself and not objecting to the box rest. I think the problem is the sheer scale of the injury and a smell which is distinctly gangrenous (had a cat RTA with this). If she was down in herself this would be a very easy decision. I just dont want to carry on and on and put here through any more if it all ends in tears anyway. Vet says its my call which of course it is. He says if she were his he would try (but then he's not facing having to get a 5 figure bank loan). Interesting point about the feeding though. She's on ad-lib haylage and D & H pasture mix - I'll look for supplements now.
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if your mare is remaining positive then it might be worth a try, and I fully understand the PTS option. after all we must do what is best. I would check that everything is ok with the foal first, as if that is not developing as expected then you will only end up with more heartache (and bills) if the wound is smelling this would indicate that things are not 100%. Three weeks is not a long time and a thought might be 'maggot' therapy this worked fantastic on my own leg and I have used it on my mare who had a nasty cut caused by bolting into a metal road sign.

again feed would be a worth looking into - have a word with the feed help lines, and defo get in touch with Foaling bank they will be so helpful and have a wealth of knowledge.

whatever happens best of luck and fondest regards in this awful place. x
 
I'm a big fan of manuka honey too and don't forget you can add it to her feed for extra help. I know only too well what it is like to have a horse which is a big financial burden. My vet told me this week I can't have the special discount any more that was arranged with the manufacturer, so I've got to find about £100 per month extra - my total drug bill will now be around £500 per month. To cap it all horsey is 28, retired and so doesn't even earn her keep! I could write a book on how to live on fresh air and charity shop bargains. At the end of day, it can only be your choice, the same as it is mine. Most people would say I was insane, but I've got the rest of my life to have holidays, new shoes and to miss her in.
 
fatpiggy said:
I'm a big fan of manuka honey too and don't forget you can add it to her feed for extra help. I know only too well what it is like to have a horse which is a big financial burden. My vet told me this week I can't have the special discount any more that was arranged with the manufacturer, so I've got to find about £100 per month extra - my total drug bill will now be around £500 per month. To cap it all horsey is 28, retired and so doesn't even earn her keep! I could write a book on how to live on fresh air and charity shop bargains. At the end of day, it can only be your choice, the same as it is mine. Most people would say I was insane, but I've got the rest of my life to have holidays, new shoes and to miss her in.
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That is really inspirational fatpiggy. She cornered me and tried to boot me this morning when I went to reattach her bandage tape. Really not sure if this is a good sign or not. I suspect her returning to being a grumpy witch maybe positive? Who knows but vet coming tomorrow to change bandage and reassess so I'll try and get some pics for everyone. Will also gradually change her feeding regime. I'm just trying to get her from climbing the walls of her stable, hence the pasture mix.
 
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