abler products

[HuT]

So lets be very clear here ! You admit its ilegal to import into the UK! are you saying its legal to import into the US ?
Can you please tell me any country that it holds a Licence in? If not why dont they licence it? If you cant why is it ok to break veterinary medicines regulations ?

I have spoken to them directly and they are going through licensing in Australia at present. But it is a very lengthy and expensive process (as with any drug licensing). From the little i know about vet products once it is licensed in one country and they have the evidence and information and testing etc... licenses in other countries will be much quicker and easier to achieve.

 

[HuT]

Can i get back to my original question! i wanted to know peoples personal experiences of using them. If you haven't used them can you kindly stop posting as i want to hear only from people that have?

 

[HuT]

PD omeprazole is omeprazole. The safety and efficacy of omeprazole in horses has already been fully tested. If the product contains nothing but omeprazole and the enteric coating, which it does because otherwise the FDA would have said it was contaminated, then it's safe.

Yes, it's illegal. Thousands of people are using it. Vets are even recommending it. It's an over the counter medication in small doses, freely available on eBay in large doses. There does not appear to be any attempt by the authorities in the UK to prevent Abler from selling here. The US tried four years ago to prevent them from selling into the US and have failed.

I'm not sure how far you think you are going to get with your one man crusade in the face of an overwhelming tide of happy customers.

I agree and i am not sure why my question has attracted these answers. I just want to know peoples experiences of using them!

 

[HuT]

You misunderstand. The FDA have absolutely not confirmed the efficacy or safety of the Abler products mentioned in their warning letter. To do that, they would have had to conduct efficacy and safety studies. They haven’t (neither have Abler, which is why I wouldn’t give any of their products to my horses but that’s by-the-by). The FDA ran a simple assay to confirm how much active ingredient the products contain vs what Abler claim they contain. And shown that one of them is adulterated. Which is totally unsurprising for an unregulated Indian(?) manufacturing facility.

What makes you think they are manufactured in an unregulated indian facility?

 

[popsdosh]

What makes you think they are manufactured in an unregulated indian facility?

Sri Lanka actually and sent from Vanu Atu to circumvent all the regs. They will tell you anything to sell you the drugs do not believe them on the getting regulated in Aus as its a relativeley quick and inexpensive exercise for a generic drug . How many other companies get away with marketing drugs under testing? Ask them why they try to fool you into thinking you are buying from the US? Just some more questions to ask when you call them up ! Your money your choice, but I guess the big moral question is if you want to buy knock off drugs which manufacturer is going to research new ones.

 

[ycbm]

I have spoken to them directly and they are going through licensing in Australia at present. But it is a very lengthy and expensive process (as with any drug licensing). From the little i know about vet products once it is licensed in one country and they have the evidence and information and testing etc... licenses in other countries will be much quicker and easier to achieve.

I wouldn't believe that unless the Australians tell you so, personally. But they do work!

 

[HuT]

They dont try and trick you into thinking they are in the US? well i dont think that at all. Many drugs / products are manufactured in sri lanka including loads of Marks and Spencers products. Does that make them bad? With regards to licensing in Aus you are not correct. It is not a quick process.

The main point is i asked for feedback from people that use the products and you clearly dont. I think you perhaps should refrain from commenting further unless you have an experience of using them.

 

[HuT]

Yes. And told my vet. And he didn't have a panic attack! And it worked.
The law is open to interpretation TBH - it says you can import prescription drugs for personal use. If your own animal it could be regarded as that - or might not! And unless you are selling on, the law is very rarely enforced anyway.
IMO if you are unable to afford the very expensive versions here, it is better than nothing and leaving your horse to suffer. I do know someone who successfully treated their horse with Nexium, an over the counter form of esomeprazole, but it would require large quantities

Thank you this mirrors my thinking tbh. I think it is best to treat your horse and then leave them to suffer. I think if the other products were a reasonable cost then people would not look for alternatives. I have now bought and start the products and i think i can already see a difference. I also loved i got them on next day delivery and i payed with paypal so all safe in case they didnt arrive

 

[ester]

If you want to talk to people that have used it a lot seem to have on the 'horses with ulcers' group on facebook.

 

[Snoozy]

What makes you think they are manufactured in an unregulated indian facility?

I don’t know if their manufacturing facility is located in India - it was a guess (hence the question mark) based on their head office being located in the Indian Ocean.

As far as their manufacturing facility being unregulated - as none of their products are approved by the FDA, EMA, APVMA, etc, they’re unregulated. One of the products the FDA tested was adulterated so I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume the Abler manufacturing facility is not GMP compliant.

 

[Cecile]

Is this debate all about saving money on drugs? If there is a drug licenced to be used in the UK why would anyone wish to buy a drug that has no licence? You could potentially buy from a batch that is lethal as someone at the other end couldn't read the manual

I only have access to a BNF and PDR which obviously is all about the possible side effects/cautions with humans using Omeprazole with the fully licenced drugs handed out by medic's and it doesn't make pleasant reading - I wouldn't be messing about with unlicenced drugs for the sake of saving money with my horses, what people choose to stuff down their own mouths is fine by me but come on keep your horses as safe as possible, there really are no pockets in a shroud

 

[HuT]

Is this debate all about saving money on drugs? If there is a drug licenced to be used in the UK why would anyone wish to buy a drug that has no licence? You could potentially buy from a batch that is lethal as someone at the other end couldn't read the manual

I only have access to a BNF and PDR which obviously is all about the possible side effects/cautions with humans using Omeprazole with the fully licenced drugs handed out by medic's and it doesn't make pleasant reading - I wouldn't be messing about with unlicenced drugs for the sake of saving money with my horses, what people choose to stuff down their own mouths is fine by me but come on keep your horses as safe as possible, there really are no pockets in a shroud

Again i asked for feedback form people that have used them. Not another lecture!

 

[ester]

Usually yes it is about saving money, as some find gastroguard prohibitively expensive, often when it is no longer covered by insurance and the horse relapses. As such I think some face the alternatives of allowing their horse to live in pain with ulcers, or PTS and I can kind of understand that the risk may then be worth it to them. It is at least why abler have been successful enough to keep on going.

I do find it interesting that it did all blow up a bit with the FDA but it went very quiet after that letter.

Interestingly merial also supply an alternative product in the USA to gastroguard, it is called ulcergard, is available OTC and the only difference is the marketing (ulcergard marketed as a preventative, to enable the OTC status)

 

[ycbm]

Is this debate all about saving money on drugs? If there is a drug licenced to be used in the UK why would anyone wish to buy a drug that has no licence?

Because the difference is hundreds of pound a week and thousands of people use it worldwide and there isn't, I think, a single report of a problem with any horse that's been given it. I've had two horses on Abler drugs myself many years ago and I know of plenty that are on them right now.

 

[popsdosh]

Ester what I find so amazing is that although people accuse Merial of raking in profits obviously others do not feel the the need to partake of this as only Norbrook have actually brought another to market in the UK even though Gastroguard has been off patent since 2014 . In the equine market of course the enteric coating is the important bit as the horses stomach has a different PH to humans so this is were the research went in and may be the reason some have reported that Ablers products have not worked whereas GG had.
Just being devils advocate I would suggest that Abler actually earn higher profits from their versions as they have suffered no regulatory or licencing costs . So maybe thats not such a valid reason to use Abler.

 

[ycbm]

Again i asked for feedback form people that have used them. Not another lecture!

You're on an open forum, you can't dictate who can post what, sorry.

 

[ycbm]

Just being devils advocate I would suggest that Abler actually earn higher profits from their versions as they have suffered no regulatory or licencing costs . So maybe thats not such a valid reason to use Abler.

Have you actually seen the price difference? Hundreds of pounds a week, per horse.

Merial were given a twenty year licence to recoup their development costs. At the end of that twenty years, the price should have dropped markedly. I don't believe it did, in which case then they are, by definition, making a whacking great profit on it now.

 

[ester]

Yes and Norbrook don't make it much cheaper which I think is quite telling (because in my limited experience of their other products there can be quite a big difference).

I do know some vets suggest the abler route if the owner does not have another option, equally I do wonder what happens if you don't think the abler has worked so you get your horse scoped, how that conversation with the vet goes, or whether so many are doing it the vets are used to it.

 

[ester]

Have you actually seen the price difference? Hundreds of pounds a week, per horse.

The price difference doesn't mean anything re. profitability unless you know the costs of production and supply?

 

[ycbm]

The price difference doesn't mean anything re. profitability unless you know the costs of production and supply?

If the original cost for twenty years of licence covered development costs, then by definition, if the price remains the same after the development costs have been recouped, provided the cost of manufacture has not risen, (and why should it because in that time it has also become a human OTC medication) then they are now making a killing on it.

I know you like to defend drug companies Ester but they are no more saints than any other retailers. Have you seen the price of wormers in other countries compared with the UK? You can't even buy an identical wormer from the same manufacturer in this country for the price they are sold for in the US, Australia or France, last time I looked.


Macclesfield is Astra Zeneca town and the OH has consulted for their finance department in the past. We have loads of friends who work or worked for them. . We know how their money is earned and spent when they get a drug that's a cash cow. The sports facilities at the Head Office complex in Alderley (before relocation to Cambridge) had to be seen to be believed.

 

[popsdosh]

Have you actually seen the price difference? Hundreds of pounds a week, per horse.

Merial were given a twenty year licence to recoup their development costs. At the end of that twenty years, the price should have dropped markedly. I don't believe it did, in which case then they are, by definition, making a whacking great profit on it now.

However if they are making whacking profits where are the Others as theres nothing stopping them! You are not given a licence to recoup your development cost it is standard industry practice and pricing is down to the manufacturer and I repeat only one other has bothered to try and get in on this highly lucrative market . The only way cost will drop is if there is competition and as Ester rightly says Norbrook are renowned for coming in well below others and havent in this case. Abler will be 20% cheaper just because your not being charged VAT if you take that into account the hundreds a week is a bit of an exageration it is well below a hundred when judged like for like, around £45 if buying at the best prices you can.

 

[ester]

I thought you were directly comparing the profit achieved per dose by merial, and the profit achieved per dose by abler. As we don't know what abler spend on production we don't know their profit, it could be more than what merial are making.

I don't defend drug companies, or consider them saints, they are there for the shareholders. But I also consider that we would be totally screwed for new drug development without some of the current regs surrounding their production/licensing etc. Anthelmintic development being a good current case in point.

 

[ycbm]

However if they are making whacking profits where are the Others as theres nothing stopping them! You are not given a licence to recoup your development cost it is standard industry practice and pricing is down to the manufacturer and I repeat only one other has bothered to try and get in on this highly lucrative market . The only way cost will drop is if there is competition and as Ester rightly says Norbrook are renowned for coming in well below others and havent in this case. Abler will be 20% cheaper just because your not being charged VAT if you take that into account the hundreds a week is a bit of an exageration it is well below a hundred when judged like for like, around £45 if buying at the best prices you can.

Hundreds a week is a bit of an exaggeration. The comparison is gastrogard with abler omeprazole.

Gastrogard £150 a week for a 575-kg horse

Abler under £45 for the same dose.

Saving for the typical treatment course of 4 full weeks 4 half weeks over £600

Yet again PD, you're doing a great job of raising Abler's profile as a supplier of ulcer meds!

 

[popsdosh]

Hundreds a week is a bit of an exaggeration. The comparison is gastrogard with abler omeprazole.

Gastrogard £150 a week for a 575-kg horse

Abler under £45 for the same dose.

Saving for the typical treatment course of 4 full weeks 4 half weeks over £600

Yet again PD, you're doing a great job of raising Abler's profile as a supplier of ulcer meds!

Unlicenced and adulterated according to the FDA.WHY?
You keep forgetting that .

 

[ycbm]

I don't forget it at all. Unlicensed. Illegal.

Adulterated? Depends on your definition of that word. The only adulteration identified by the FDA was 10% less in the dose than advertised, which is still within the therapeutic index for effective use for that particular drug. That's a trading standards nicety, not a safety issue.

 

[popsdosh]

I don't forget it at all. Unlicensed. Illegal.

Adulterated? Depends on your definition of that word. The only adulteration identified by the FDA was 10% less in the dose than advertised, which is still within the therapeutic index for effective use for that particular drug. That's a trading standards nicety, not a safety issue.

So being unlicenced with no control over production methods is not a SAFETY ISSUE! you astound me sometimes!!! Antifreeze contains alchohol does that make it safe to drink?

Again the product was not tested beyond establishing it contained a controlled drug that was the only purpose so as to send the warning letter. You seem to have a mental block on that.

 

[JillA]

You're on an open forum, you can't dictate who can post what, sorry.

That's a bit harsh - I can see OPs point of view and almost posted about that myself a few pages back. She wants experiences, and quite possibly knows the pros and cons. without everyone giving their hobby horses an outing!
For what it's worth, the high price Gastro Guard has been able to sustain is largely down to insurance companies - they don't have to count the pennies, they just hike premiums. So we all pay. For those of us who self insure, that sort of price is hard to accept

 

[ester]

I don't forget it at all. Unlicensed. Illegal.

Adulterated? Depends on your definition of that word. The only adulteration identified by the FDA was 10% less in the dose than advertised, which is still within the therapeutic index for effective use for that particular drug. That's a trading standards nicety, not a safety issue.

11.3% more

 

[ihatework]

Because the difference is hundreds of pound a week and thousands of people use it worldwide and there isn't, I think, a single report of a problem with any horse that's been given it. I've had two horses on Abler drugs myself many years ago and I know of plenty that are on them right now.

How the hell can you know that when Abler don’t follow industry standard pharmacovigilance procedures? Which is kind of the point trying to be made!
So unless you know every horse treated with Abler (which I doubt even you could lay claim to).

At the end of the day this is a knock off product, made in Asia, not compliant with GMP and PV, that has a few years ago been tested by the FDA and shown at that point in time and for that batch, to have active drug product within it. Abler has stayed in business and has presumably plenty of repeat business without Internet horror reports doing the rounds. Feeding it to a horse is significantly cheaper then giving gastroguard. But each time you do so you are doing it at a much higher risk to the animal than you would be feeding gastroguard.

To repeat - you pay your money you take your chances.

But don’t BS proven safety and efficacy

 

[ester]

That's a bit harsh - I can see OPs point of view and almost posted about that myself a few pages back. She wants experiences, and quite possibly knows the pros and cons. without everyone giving their hobby horses an outing!
For what it's worth, the high price Gastro Guard has been able to sustain is largely down to insurance companies - they don't have to count the pennies, they just hike premiums. So we all pay. For those of us who self insure, that sort of price is hard to accept

The thing is I don't think we have that many people who have used it, or will say they have used it on the forum, which is why I suggested elsewhere.