about to buy my first horse...how to make an offer without offending vendors?

Make an offer without tack. That way you aren't quibbling the 'actual' price of the horse.

I would say 'how much is he without tack as I don't need the tack' and see what they say. They should knock off £200-£500 for
tack depending on how nice it is.

Really you do the bargaining before the vetting but most people set a price on things expecting to be knocked down 10%. 10% is polite any more than that can be offensive.

Good luck!
 
I wouldnt get too bogged down by all this and be swayed by a couple of hundred pounds, you knew the price of the horse and must have been expecting to pay about that price.

Remember he has passed a full vetting which alot of horses cant even younger ones, if he has a good record and is a been there type and i was selling i wouldnt drop any more than a couple of hundred.

You do seem to be trying to lower the price to fit in with your financial needs which is all very well but doesnt mean the seller will see it that way, in fact as a seller if my buyer told me they were having diffculties before even buying the horse it would put me off.

I think you do need to consider that once the horse is fitter and feeling better will he be suitable for a first time owner, whatever you decide please let the sellers know as soon as you can as passing the vetting will rightly make them assume you are going to make an offer as you really have no reason not to do so.
 
I think you have had plenty of advice about haggling, so I will just try to shed some light on his age. Unless you have seen his passport (apparently not) and it gives his actual dob, you can assume that he was born on 1st May - all non Tb horses are assumed to have been born then, for aging purposes, so he would be considered to be just past his 18th birthday now and not 19 until next year.
As to what he is worth; I bought a 17 yr old earlier this year, with tack and 2 rugs (one new, one torn) for £1400. The former owners made a loss -I know that they bought her without tack for more than that the previous year but they didn't get on with her. We think that she is worth her weight in gold i didn't quibble over the price but I did ask them to keep her for another 3 weeks while I built a stable for her.
 
It can't be a full vetting for £ 144 surely? That would be a 2 stage. Count it's legs and check it's eyes and heart!

OP if you haggle for him without tack, then you are going to have to buy some! It's swings and roundabouts!

What you need to make sure is that you can get insurance on the horse, especially if you are on a budget.
 
Samantha008 said:
I would write a list of all the expenses you are going to need to pay out- write an approx amoun for each and then take that to the vendor and say what you think hes worth.

That is a lot of money for an 18yr old.

Amazing vetting though!! :) :)
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But really, it's not the vendor's problem what she will have to pay out is it? You expect to have to sort that kind of stuff. I trailed my horse over a hundred miles, but I didn't try to get the petrol money off!

You can't use that as a bargaining tool with people who have a poor, unwormed, unvaccinated horse with shoes hanging off and tatty rugs!

I do wonder what planet some people are on.
 
I did make a stupid offer for our pony - he was up for 5k but as he had been out of work for a year or so & was unfit & over weight with no tack I offered £3500. They rejected my offer but offered him for 4k which I agreed on. We got a bargain & Tbh he is probably worth twice that much now!! But at that time he wasn't worth what he was up for so being cheeky paid off. Although I only booked vetting after agreeing on price. xx
 
If someone came to me and offered me a lower price for my horse, but a really good home, and then said it was because they couldn't afford the livery yard deposit I would think they couldn't afford a horse full stop, and wouldn't think they were a "great home". There is always something to pay for with horses, you always need a few hundred spare.

We have a 17yr old pony about to go up for sale. Today he did his last show with my stepson. He won or was placed in every single class. He has taught him everything, and will his next jockey. He is worth his weight in gold. Your 18yr old "been there done it" horse will be too.
 
This is Freya's mother, Julia, with a question or two of her own to the community:

Thanks to everyone for the information and supportive comments: as I'm the person who will be negotiating final details, it would help to have some feedback on the best approach to the vendors, before I contact them again.

Re protocol, for future reference, is it customary to make an offer, subject to vetting, and then, dependant on the result of the vetting, agree a price? And not wait for the vetting to establish whether there are any issues that might affect the sale price before making an offer? That's what I've gathered from the replies posted.

Although we have looked at horses for loan or sale, we haven't got this stage before and, as Freya has said, I'm not a previous horse owning horsey parent with years of experience to bring to this, so for us, as first time buyers, the first independent opinion on the horse came with the vetting, which picked up good health/poor condition, an estimate from the equine vet that it'll take 8 months to get him into condition, and that his temperament might change as a result. The vendors have said, from the outset that good and permanent home is the most important factor, and to come back and try him as many times as we need to, because they also know he would be a first horse for Freya.

In order to give him everything he needs when he comes to us, the cost issue is not just feed and supplements to bring him back into condition (on top of the teeth/shoes/worming/vacs which are all due), and having to try different brands to see which are best for him, but also paying for advice on training routines to get him working to build up his topline, again because I'm not a horsey person etc etc and though we can work from books and general advice, it would help to set him going in the right direction from the off.

I've found a local dressage instructor who also specialises in this - she travels and can help - for a price- and it's an unanticipated feature of the overall budgeting exercise, that's come up through the vetting, together with feed/supplements/conditioning mixes, so though it's late in the day to raise questions about the price, it matters that the result is fair to everyone, and that the vendors don't feel offended or that they are being taken advantage of, because that's not the intention, but equally, that Freya doesn't sell herself short by not raising a fair question with them.

Freya is worried that they will be offended if I mention the vets comments about his condition to the vendors: do people feel that this would be the case?

I think that they put work into him when they first got him, have been busy with 2 other horses over the last year, and have let things slide a bit and simply haven't noticed that he's not in that great shape - however, what's the bast way to raise this with them?

Any advice gratefully received.

Julia
 
Hi Julia,
You have written a very detailed post and it clarifies your position re. the purchase.Yes it is usual to make an offer,subject to the vets findings which may then mean some more negotiating.You have not done it this way round so you are in a slightly weaker position as you have already had the expense of the vetting.
However the vet has noted some problems with the horses general condition which are relevant,he may be sound but is in poor condition and needs routine treatment which the owners have failed to carry out.
I think you can go to them ,in a friendly but decisive manner,and make a reduced offer.
He is 18 and will not be going up in value,will cost to get looking better and we are going into the winter.
I would make an offer of around £1400 this should cover the teeth etc and give you some extra for other costs.
If they genuinely care about him they will take it and be happy he is going to a good home.
If they are offended,which they should not be,dont worry,leave the offer with them for a week and see if they get back to you,they probably will as buyers dont come along every day and they still have to keep him until he does sell.

I hope you get it sorted out and Freya can enjoy her new horse.It sounds as if he will have a great home with you.
 
He's passed the vetting so now you have no bargaining chip to reduce the price. However, you could say that the vet said he needs his teeth doing, vaccinations and needs some weight on, so if they get teeth and vaccinations done, you'll pay what they are asking?
 
What have you got to lose by offering the price you can afford... Nothing! Offer the lower price. As for advice on routine, building topline, exercises to be doing - their are many an experienced horseperson on here who I could recommend to help you. Instead of paying for this! I can bet one or too live nearby too.
 
Hi, strictly speaking the offer is made subject to vet, but dont worry - its not the end of the world.

I wouldnt mention too many 'faults' picked up by the vet as that COULD offend, but I would say that he would need to have his jabs and that done (dont be too specific), and you can offer a fantastic home for life, they are welcome to visit him and for that reason you would like to make a offer of £1500, you have the cash ready and waiting and you can send a £250 deposit via paypal/bank transfer to show your commitment. If the sellers have any sense, they will see that its a good offer and the market is a buyers market.

Starting low means you can always go higher.

As for the comments about his temperament changing when he is fit - well it could happen, but thats something that can be sorted out IF it happens.

Good luck xxx
 
I’d deffo say he’s all down to what you want to pay – the same as with horses, cars and houses!

Two examples:

My boy cost me £300 – the past two previous owners couldn’t handle him and just wanted shut – he was probably going to be PTS if I hadn’t come along. He is an amazing looking big strapping horse (with a huge attitude) with a father who won the Epson Derby – if when I went looking at him he was ‘rideable’ I’d have easily paid over £2K for him. Luckily I have the experience and time to retrain him and he’s doing amazing well – hopefully I’ll be showing him under saddle as a heavyweight hunter in the future.

A house I fell in love with was up for £95K on the market a few years ago and in need of a complete refurb … I went to view it and subsequently a few weeks later the estate agent went bust and the house was listed as no longer for sale. The house then went back up with another estate agent for £90K, I kept an eye on it and after a few months it was reduced again to £85K. I work for a property developer and have a lot of contacts hence why I wanted a ‘project’. I made an offer of £58K and it was accepted. I would have paid the £95K as I wanted the house so much.

Try your luck – she can only say no and if this horse is the one for you … then you will pay what you feel is right. Good luck and keep us updated!
 
all you have to say is "would you accept Xamount?" offering lower than you are willing to pay, and haggle with the owner. Anybody who sells anything ought to expect this unless they specifically say "no offers". I'm sure they won't be offended.
 
I take it you know the reason why he is in poor condition? Lack of funds or lack of knowledge or health reasons. I also take you have a good idea what he will be like to ride when he is up to weight and fit? I hope you have actually asked why he is in poor condition? Remember some horses are totally different when up to weight and fit and I mean totally different.

Anyway always offer a low price dont worry about being offensive its like house buying. Start low and you can always move up. Start high and you cant move down.

For a horse that age in poor condition not more than 1k with tack. They havent bothered to put the time or effort into making him good to sell so dont deserve the money back.

I bought a bombproof clyde for a months livery money and the one before I got cheap due to them having no money.
 
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Hi Julia, it sounds as if you are taking a bit of a gamble on this older horse in poor condition. Do you know why he is in such a poor way? It seems rather stange at this time of year, my thoughts would be that there was something wrong with him, possibly with his teeth?
Saying that, these genuine older horses can be worth their weight in gold & you seem very willing to put in the work required to get him back to prime condition. With regard to money, it sounds as if the current owners need to move him on, with the winter fast approching i think that they will accept an offer. I would be expecting to pay between £1000-£1400 for a horse like this. Good luck, i hope it works out for you :-)
 
Kaylum said:
I take it you know the reason why he is in poor condition? Lack of funds or lack of knowledge or health reasons. I also take you have a good idea what he will be like to ride when he is up to weight and fit? I hope you have actually asked why he is in poor condition? Remember some horses are totally different when up to weight and fit and I mean totally different.
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This is exactly what I have been thinking reading this thread.

I bought my first horse in the spring-time, he was VERY underweight, and the owner told me he was just not a very good do-er in the winter. I got him home, gave him some feed, and he turned into a completely different horse.

Please be careful - I would be very worried buying this horse if I were you. I have a fantastic relationship with my veteran now, but it has taken a long time, and a lot of fear to get there.
 
INtresting replies for the OP :)

FWIW - i wouldnt pay over a grand for an horse over 17.... harsh but for what id want (general RC not a superstar) it woludnt happen... OP for your first horse im assuming you would want the same

However, now you have had the vetting etc - i wouldnt be making any offers except that of minus tack (100 quid?)else you would be deemed a definate timewaster..

this is coming from someone who viewed a horse and rode it for 10 minutes and parted with 1200 no quibble. You want a horse that badly, you pay the price. :) good luck :)
 
You should have negotiated the price before the vetting. You chose to get him vetted at £144 so you cant expect the vendor to drop the price on that basis. Also, you can't moan about having to pay farrier, dentist, worming bills because these are all part and parcel of owning a horse. You have tried him many times, you knew he needed feeding up and you also knew the asking price of £1700 before you arranged the vetting. Im sure the vendors will accept £1500 which is a small price to pay for a safe, sound horse. Get him bought and enjoy!
 
Just how poor is his condition that he will take 8 months to put it back on?

That sounds very extreme to me.

My experience has been, that even with very ribby horses, a couple of months of decent grazing, haylage and hard feed are sufficient to make a vast difference. Unless this horse is an absolute bag of bones then I find it hard to believe it would really take 8 months to get him right.

I would just be very careful about what you say to the owners - you could easily offend them either by stating that they've not taken good enough care of the horse, or by making them an offer at this stage.

There is no harm in broaching the subject with care - but I'd definitely be cautious. From their point of view, you've seen the horse 3 times and it has done everything you could ask, and it has passed the vetting with flying colours. I imagine you've said you want to buy the horse and they will therefore presume you will pay the asking price - if you turn around now and start haggling over price you might well lose the horse.

Out of interest, what tack is included with the horse? If you get a half decent saddle and some rugs chucked in, then you can probably account for £3/400 already.

Edited to add.. I've just gone and re-read your first post and you say you can see his ribs but not badly. For one reason or another the horse I have dropped a fair amount of condition a few weeks ago - and you could definitely see his ribs easily. I moved him to a yard where he gets fed twice a day and haylage and night and he's in tip top condition again - that has taken less than a month, with nothing extraordinary feed wise.
 
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You have had so many different views expressed that I expect you are feeling befuzzled!! :o:o

I personally wouldn't be too hung up on his ribby appearance. The fact that he passed a vetting cleanly is a major plus and he sounds a safe schoolmaster who could be worth his weight in gold and he has a good, recent competition record. Vets have to cover themselves by pointing out every conceivable fault. There is a saying that horses never look good at blackberry time and I'm sure getting teeth, shoes, feed, topline etc sorted out now will mean he'll soon be looking better.

Good luck to you both and I hope that you buy him, to me he is not wildly overpriced :):)
 
Look - if you don't ask you don't get. You don't need to give them "excuses" as to why you are putting in an offer just say - would you take an offer on him? Then if they say yes take a deep breath and say £££ - also, unless you are a professional salesman - take my word for it - do it over the phone!! Lot easier to keep a poker face! Good luck! Even £100 would pay for the petrol!
 
or maybe negotiate to include delivery and a new set of shoes and tack/rugs etc. (sorry if someone has said that already). I can never resist haggling. My dad was a second hand car dealer - I learned it from him!
 
I would simply say that following the vetting the vet has one or two concerns, you still want to buy him but the vets comments have given you pause for thought and have indicated that you will have to spend extra money on him. As such you would like to offer £xxx

You can't really re-negotiate after the vetting unless the vetting has thrown something up.

The vetting has thrown up concerns but not concerns significant enough to make the vet advise you not to purchase. Vettings aren't pass or fail and depend upon what you want to do with the horse and what you are paying for it. It is a statement of what the horse is fit/suitable for on the day.

Make an offer, don't make a silly offer but most people expect to be knocked down a bit.

If pressed say that the vet has concerns about his weight/fitness and that the vet has pointed out he is over due for jabs, teeth etc which are all going to be expenses you have to face straight away rather than being spread through the year.

If they aren't prepared to negotiate then you either pay up or walk away but you should at least try as the vet has raised concerns.

Good Luck.
 
KristmasKatt said:
I would simply say that following the vetting the vet has one or two concerns, you still want to buy him but the vets comments have given you pause for thought and have indicated that you will have to spend extra money on him. As such you would like to offer £xxx

You can't really re-negotiate after the vetting unless the vetting has thrown something up.

The vetting has thrown up concerns but not concerns significant enough to make the vet advise you not to purchase. Vettings aren't pass or fail and depend upon what you want to do with the horse and what you are paying for it. It is a statement of what the horse is fit/suitable for on the day.

Make an offer, don't make a silly offer but most people expect to be knocked down a bit.

If pressed say that the vet has concerns about his weight/fitness and that the vet has pointed out he is over due for jabs, teeth etc which are all going to be expenses you have to face straight away rather than being spread through the year.

If they aren't prepared to negotiate then you either pay up or walk away but you should at least try as the vet has raised concerns.

Good Luck.
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^ I think that this is very sensible advice. :)
 
thanks for all the replies, lots of different views making me feel a bit confused! But thanks for all the advice, it's really helpful!

My biggest concern about buying him is what could happen when he's feeling fitter and more muscled, espec. because of his sport horse/tb wb breeding, he's perfectly behaved now but I don't want to unearth a completely different horse who is too much of a handful for me!...I have the number of his previous owner so will give her a ring, she had him since he was 7 so might be able to give an indication of his temperament when he's fit/good condition.

I'm really excited! If everything goes well we'll be getting him dropped off on sunday! :D xx
 
Hi Freya

It is not easy is it.

I think you need to be realistic.

At his age he may have years left in him to do dressage and have fun on but he may not. A vetting is only an snapshot of a horses health on the day, positive he passed of course. But either way he is only likely to be in full work for a few more years. Then you have to either keep him as an expensive pet or try to find him another home as a companion, which may be very difficult as he is a big poor do-er..not really companion material.

You are also right to beware that once he is fit and well muscled he is likely to be a very different entity. If he is already on the strong and spooky side is he likely to be more than you can or want to cope with once he is built up????. If he is not right to you it will not be easy to pass him on and you could loose a lot of money.

Are you happy to take these risks and prepared to keep a horse long term, who may need retiring at any point from now on in.

Just go in with your eyes open.

It is more than reasonable to offer £1400 and see what they say. You may be able to meet at £1500 which if I was them I would bite your hand off for!

One more option (though trying not to be negative). You could alternatively hold off for the winter and save your livery money to buy something better in the spring which will last you a decade or more.

For £3000 you should be able to get an decent allrounder who is under 12. If you go for a 5 or 6 year old you will get better value. I bought a rising 6 year old in January for £3k and he is just fabulous.
 
Marley&Me said:
One more option (though trying not to be negative). You could alternatively hold off for the winter and save your livery money to buy something better in the spring which will last you a decade or more.

For £3000 you should be able to get an decent allrounder who is under 12. If you go for a 5 or 6 year old you will get better value. I bought a rising 6 year old in January for £3k and he is just fabulous.
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Something better?

3k will not get her something under 12 of the quality that this horse is. You certainly won't get something schooled properly for dressage up to flying changes, with good lateral work, BSJA winnings etc - and certainly not if its a novice ride, and a nice all round person either. For the calibre of this horse if it was a 10yr old the asking price would probably be 8-10k at least. This isn't some knackered old dobbin they are trying to palm off - it is a quality animal.

Take away the tack and rugs and this horse is already only about £1300, which if you ask me, is a very fair price for a sound, well schooled quality schoolmaster to learn the ropes on.
 
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