Abscess article, interesting!

Interesting.

I am a bit confused as to the assertion that abscesses cause bony weakness. Obviously it can happen but what if there are other things going on such as circulatory problems, thin soles causing excess pressure and less bony protection and increased concussive damage.

There is such a push to surgically intervene (digging about) with abscesses generally that I find worrying myself. I'm sure it is a better course of action in some cases but I don't believe it is in many cases and the root causes (thin soles, poor hoof health/structure) can be overlooked.
 
I read it with the same question. The abscess was open. Why is the vet so sure that the bone degradation was caused by the abscess and not that the bone degradation was the cause of the abscess in the first place ???

The foot is in terrible shape with a desperately contracted frog. Anything could have been going on.
 
I have read about abscesses tracking around the pedal bone and causing degradation to it in the past, and I would never ever leave one to find its own way out for just that reason. "Digging" or surgical intervention, whatever you want to call it, if done by a good foot care professional, follows to route of the abscess as indicated by its track and no other healthy tissue is "dug out" as a general rule. The route is already infected, so any risk of infection is already there, added to which it is the quickest way to relive the acute discomfort. All they are doing is reopening a track which has begun to heal, sealing in the pus. I have had them "dug out" by good farriers in the past, treated with poultice and antibacterial and had them comfortable and healing within 3 days max.
Is this not a real veterinary surgeon who has written an article based on his professional knowledge and opinion then?
 
JillA said:
I have read about abscesses tracking around the pedal bone and causing degradation to it in the past, and I would never ever leave one to find its own way out for just that reason. "Digging" or surgical intervention, whatever you want to call it, if done by a good foot care professional, follows to route of the abscess as indicated by its track and no other healthy tissue is "dug out" as a general rule. The route is already infected, so any risk of infection is already there, added to which it is the quickest way to relive the acute discomfort. All they are doing is reopening a track which has begun to heal, sealing in the pus. I have had them "dug out" by good farriers in the past, treated with poultice and antibacterial and had them comfortable and healing within 3 days max.
Is this not a real veterinary surgeon who has written an article based on his professional knowledge and opinion then?
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Can we not question a professional?

Along with many other people, vets included, I have not allowed an abscess to be dug out for many years. Instead, I have as allowed them to break at the heal bulb or coronet band and never had an issue with them. The ones I know of where there have been issues have normally been treated with Bute and /or antibiotics before they are open.
 
It could just as easily be circular in cause and affect, - the bone degradation occurring prior to the abscess draining/when drainage was insufficient/multiple abscesses which then produce bone chips which maintain the abscessing.
 
JillA said:
And whether you have access to all the information, current or background, that they have.
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Yes true. However I read it that he was saying (aside from that individual case) that abscesses cause P3 degeneration. My objection is that what is causing the abscesses in the first place is not considered along with other possible causes of P3 degeneration. The focus is on surgical interventions of a symptom in my view. The case itself is an interesting one and it's good to see he uses key hole surgery as opposed to removing half the hoof wall.
Just using the word degeneration for simplicity.

ps. Opening hoof abscesses is fraught with problems imho.
 
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glenruby said:
And not opening them is fraught with even more...
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Does this mean we have to panic about all the ones that go unnoticed until the tell take slit appears? What do we do about those that burst naturally? Loads of abscesses have few symptoms, how do we manage those ones?

My beef is that abscesses aren't often seen as a symptom of another problem but a problem in their own (and singular) right.
 
Just to add, I would be wary of expressing opinions on situations that you know little about ie hoof abscess complications as focussing on prevention while there is an active abscess close or encasing the pedal bone would inevitably result in losing the horse. Surgical intervention IS most definitely required for any abscess that is affecting the pedal bone. Once you are getting that under control you can then focus on prevention. I have followed many an abscess through with radiographs and by enlarge the vast majority of those that result in septic pedal osteitis have started as a simple hoof abscess. Horses do get pedal osteitis without abscess (ie non septic) but that is a different condition.
AmandaP - don't be ridiculous. You know we'll what is meant by my post. Many abscesses take too long to burst. If they come to a head quickly and do it themselves that is fantastic but many don't.
For the record I have seen at least as many abscesses in "barefoot" horses as sod horses this year - and that's even when I exclude those who are just "unshod".
 
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That's me put in my place! I do have some awareness of when abscesses are dangerous. How should they be diagnosed then to know what you are dealing with? I read most days of hooves being opened willy nilly for suspected abscessing by non vets. Is this ok?

Also, re prevention what about hoof/horse health being a factor? I made no comment about barefoot did I? Bare hooves can be just as unhealthy as shod ones.
 
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ester said:
x ray surely?
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I don't know but I don't believe abscesses are routinely diagnosed by X Ray. The signs are similar to many other conditions especially laminitis which can affect one hoof only. I think the history, especially sudden onset of acute 'broken leg' lameness, is a big indicator in the absence of injury I believe.
 
glenruby said:
And not opening them is fraught with even more...
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Not in my now lengthy experience. I am aware of vets who believe the same.

If I understand you Glenruby, you are a vet who will attempt to open an abscess routinely, in the belief that this will prevent pedal bone infection? I say attempt of course because they aren't always that easy to find, and many a horse with a different problem altogether has been left with holes in its foot.
 
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We all have our points of view - sometimes based on experience, sometimes on evaluating the experience of others or our own common sense. What is important IMHO is that we all keep an open mind and are therefore able to learn and develop. Absolutely not getting at anyone on here, but people who know it all scare me to death around horses - there is ALWAYS more to learn, such as what is in the article in the link.
Funny how the horse world is full of polarised viewpoints, from barefoot/shod to bits/bitless - is every other common interest group the same?
 
The majority of abcesses are easy peasy to sort, they either errupt themselves, or are located very easily and sorted with a tiny dig out.

It isn't and shouldn't be a huge drama.

But to also suggest surgical intevention is never necessary is absolute tosh. It is rarer granted, and not something to jump into lightly, but if you had ever had the unpleasant experience to see such deep infection round the pedal bone and a horse in acute distress and pain then I think you would change your mind pretty quick.
 
I don't think anyone said it was never necessary.

What we are questioning is the article suggesting that all abscesses should routinely be opened in case they develop into pedal bone infection.

This is a point of view that many vets and farriers disagree with..
 
I don't claim to know it all even if it comes across that way. ;) I do like to question and question blanket statements though.

I would be very worried with an abscess that doesn't resolve and recurring abscesses. I would also be very worried if there was any swelling above the hoof.
I also don't like the idea of a non vet diagnosing and digging with a hoof knife that may have previously dug out an abscess on another horse or trimmed a severely infected frog! Is that unreasonable?
 
cptrayes said:
I don't think anyone said it was never necessary.

What we are questioning is the article suggesting that all abscesses should routinely be opened in case they develop into pedal bone infection.

This is a point of view that many vets and farriers disagree with..
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Precisely!
 
My horse is barefoot and as much as I hate to see his foot dug into, I will not let him suffer in agony, after all his foot will grow back!
My last horse who was shod had a bad abscess and I nearly lost him to colic due to the pain, had to be rushed into Liphook, if I had just left him he would have died! Both these horses TB and on the whole I do not think they cope with pain as well as say a cob would!
 
this wasn't a routine abscess though was it? that was going to find its way out and resolve without intervention?

With regards to my xray comment that was for deciding on surgical intervention for a non-resolving abscess.

eta- no, me neither IHW.
 
ihatework said:
That certainly isn't how I read that article
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What did you think we were saying - that he shouldn't have operated on a horse with a serious pedal bone infection? No wonder we disagreed :)


I think both the title and the first paragraph are clearly saying that all abscesses should be 'treated' before they can infect the pedal bone.

Since Bute and antibiotics are contraindicated for a non draining abscess that only leaves opening it.
 
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ester said:
this wasn't a routine abscess though was it? that was going to find its way out and resolve without intervention?

With regards to my xray comment that was for deciding on surgical intervention for a non-resolving abscess.

eta- no, me neither IHW.
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No, it wasn't a straightforward abscess and it sounds like long standing hoof neglect.

Quote from the first paragraph. I shouldn't take bits out but the message is clear.
"In the hoof, this damage most often occurs in the laminae and bony structure within; in other words, if not treated, the coffin bone itself begins to degenerate and weaken, causing small pieces to break away."
 
cptrayes said:
What did you think we were saying - that he shouldn't have operated on a horse with a serious pedal bone infection? No wonder we disagreed :)


I think both the title and the first paragraph are clearly saying that all abscesses should be 'treated' before they can infect the pedal bone.

Since Bute and antibiotics are contraindicated for a non draining abscess that only leaves opening it.
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No I was disagreeing with 'What we are questioning is the article suggesting that all abscesses should routinely be opened in case they develop into pedal bone infection.'

I don't think the article suggests that.
I also don't agree with your view to never attempt to dig out an abcess.

Personally I would leave them 48h max to see if they break out on their own, if they don't then the risk-benefit ration changes for me and I want them dug out. I'm more than happy to let a farrier to look/dig first, and only if unresolved would I go the vet & x-ray route.
 
amandap said:
No, it wasn't a straightforward abscess and it sounds like long standing hoof neglect.

Quote from the first paragraph. I shouldn't take bits out but the message is clear.
"In the hoof, this damage most often occurs in the laminae and bony structure within; in other words, if not treated, the coffin bone itself begins to degenerate and weaken, causing small pieces to break away."
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To me the message isn't clear. If you leave an abcess in the foot for any lenght of time then what he says is correct. He uses the term 'if not treated', for me abcess tratment could include things like tubing & poulticing to start and if not errupting then conservatively opening up. Not treated would to me mean 'I don't believe in digging out I'm going to leave this abcess because I believe it will definitely break out at the coronet band' ....for those that stick to that motto, I hope they do break out for you. Because if you get one that doesn't ...
 
ihatework said:
....for those that stick to that motto, I hope they do break out for you. Because if you get one that doesn't ...
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If for one minute you think I would leave any of my horses with an extremely painful abscess or recurrent abscesses for days/weeks on end on a point of principle then I am severely insulted. Good for you.
 
amandap said:
If for one minute you think I would leave any of my horses with an extremely painful abscess or recurrent abscesses for days/weeks on end on a point of principle then I am severely insulted. Good for you.
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If you get that severly insulted from one part of a complete paragraph (the remainder of which you have ignored) then you need to get some perspective.
 
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