Acceptance of aids

HufflyPuffly

HufflyPuffly

Well-Known Member
Joined
24 October 2012
Messages
5,724
Visit site
Thought it might end up a useful thread :).

Anyone want to share their tips and suggestions for teaching a horse acceptance of the aids: hand, leg, seat, etc.

I had a epiphany last night that Skylla and myself had been 'faking it' with regards the understanding of leg aids, we both thought we understood what was what, until rider asked for turn on the forehand and angelic baby horse did a 'I DON'T understand, I SHARN'T and I shall make my feelings KNOWN' :rolleyes3:... She 'may' :o have reached the teenage stage where she thinks she knows all, and any correction is met with complete disbelief that I could possibly want anything other than what she is offering :o...

So we are going back a couple of steps, to independent aids, release and reward when correct response is given.

Tips for getting a very reactive baby horse to accept the leg are welcome :).

20840629_682731728579357_4413145524024628726_n.jpg


As an aside, I also need to get her a wider gullet for her saddle as although she's not complaining yet (she is very obvious when she doesn't like saddle fit), I think it looks to be too high in front, but cannot decide if it's just her very odd shape as she is bonkersly uphill :o...
 
TBH I think this happens quite often :o Not the leg aid specifically, but getting a kind of answer from a horse when you pose them a question, thinking "yup, they've got it" and then discovering down the line that they didn't actually quite understand what you were asking, they'd just given an approximately correct response :D

It's a funny one isn't it, training horses, because they don't have a bleeding clue what we're on about and you have to explain with gestures. Like doing charades. Only they don't know any books or films even exist. Quite amazing that you can teach them anything really!

I think horses learn the correct response by guessing, so I think it's a case of keep giving the cue until they guess correctly, and then repeating with some kind of positive feedback so that the horse learns.

Like you, I find with Kira (who is really highly trainable, she guesses well, quickly) that we have to go back and re-learn things now and then because I've let a detail slip. She knew what I wanted if I rode a half pass aid, for example, in terms of bend and moving her legs just so, but she didn't know that she also needed to be parallel to the long side -that wasn't included in the set of facts she knew about HP. So we had to re-learn it, but with that additional information included.

Maybe I'll remember to include that element when I teach the next one :o :D

re the reactivity, I think I'd keep the aid quietly on until she stopped the drama.. I know I have to ride my lazy horse with the leg off as much as possible, and the hot ones with the leg on... they have to let you use the leg ;) Seem to remember a certain Mr Hester mentioning that once or twice!

Same if they don't accept the rein aid, I'm quite a fan of not changing too much once the horse is given an instruction (assuming it's fair and reasonable that the horse can achieve what it's being asked of) but just keep the aid there until the horse guesses correctly. I think it's tempting to start upping the ante or adding in extra cues but really the horse needs to come to the original aid, or else you are muddling the question.
 
Last edited:
Your saddle looks quite a bit too far forward, impinging the shoulder cartilage. Might explain why it looks so high, might also explain why she is not keen on the introduction of ToF
 
Interesting analogy :lol:, it is a wonder they do anything for us sometimes, especially when you take into account most of us are not perfect and also make mistakes about how we ask for things sometimes :o.

We know about leg on until she calms down, same as the rein aid for slow, both are not to be overacted to or ignored and she is getting there bless her, and definitely agree not to change too much or muddy the waters with doing too much.

Saddle shouldn't be too far forward, think the angle of the pic isn't helping, but will pay more attention on placement on next ride :).
 
Yes you're right MP...the most obvious common example of that is canter leads - horse hasn't clocked that you are asking for a particular leg in canter strike offs, just that it does one in one direction, and the other in the other direction.

I had a variation on that theme with dabs fairly recently when practicing counter canter. He knew that different leg placement meant different canter lead in front, but hadn't realised that that also applied to his back legs :o Which of course also highlights that he wasn't all that straight or through in the trot canter transition anyway....

Not sure I agree with not upping the ante though. I think upping the ante to get a horse to understand is often necessary, as long as you're tactful in how you do it. Things like collecting a horse up a bit before asking for medium trot are upping the ante. Your aid for the medium may be the same, but you've amplified it by changing the starting position you are coming from when it's applied. I think it's often the change in an aid a horse picks up on before really 'getting' the aid itself means something. It's like the cold, warmer, warmer, hot find an unknown object game
 
Oh yes DD I would agree with that... I think I have something less... "constructive" in mind :wink3: see a fair bit of less helpful ante-upping around if you know what I mean! Sometimes one just needs to give time for an exercise or instruction to work, rather than start by telling the horse off for not magically knowing something ;)
 
Really enjoying this thread - thank you all. I ran into a similar problem when teaching turn on the fore to both my current horse and my previous one. Both have/had well-established and (what I thought correct) leg yields and moved well off my leg. When getting to turn on the fore, I realised that I didn't have nearly as much control of the hind quarters as I thought I did! It helped having someone on the ground but otherwise, I focused again on the leg yield. What helped was to slow the leg yield right down (often a bad idea I know), sit back properly and step under. At first I had to really nag my Welsh boy but he soon realised that I meant that he had to actually step under and not just get out of it by being microscopically crooked.

I suppose it ultimately boiled down to straightness and stepping away from the leg instead of leaning away from the leg. I hadn't done a good enough job of keeping him properly straight and got punished for it when teaching something new.
 
I think the saddle looks too far forward, tbh. It seems to be a common problem that I see all over the place.

As for teaching the aids, I find that horses understand what the rider wants better, when they can see a reason for it. So, rather than teaching reinback in an empty arena, the horse understands if asked to rein back as part of opening a gate, ToF/ToH, to move around an obstacle, lengthening a stride over poles etc.
 
AlexHyde - on a side note, could I ask how Skylla's uphill conformation affects her way of going? I feel that we are far more familiar with downhill-built horses and I've rarely seen one as uphill as her. Does it mean she finds collection easier? Are there any things that you feel she finds harder as a result? Sorry to derail slightly - happy to continue via PM if more appropriate! I was just intrigued.
 
apercrumbie said:
AlexHyde - on a side note, could I ask how Skylla's uphill conformation affects her way of going? I feel that we are far more familiar with downhill-built horses and I've rarely seen one as uphill as her. Does it mean she finds collection easier? Are there any things that you feel she finds harder as a result? Sorry to derail slightly - happy to continue via PM if more appropriate! I was just intrigued.
Click to expand...

She finds stretching down very difficult (high head carriage as well), as I think it must feel very out of balance to lower her head and neck to where most horses would find comfortable (you can also see slightly over-developed under neck muscles that aren't helping this too). I wouldn't say up-hill = easy to collect, as she isn't that short coupled, but she does find it easy to get her legs underneath her and bounce off the floor to give air time to her paces (generally she likes bouncing about and not being clam, relaxed and stretching :o).

In reality I think currently it just gives the impression of engagement behind when perhaps in a less uphill horse you could see they are not truly engaged.

Enjoying reading everyone's posts, thank you :).
 
milliepops said:
Oh yes DD I would agree with that... I think I have something less... "constructive" in mind :wink3: see a fair bit of less helpful ante-upping around if you know what I mean! Sometimes one just needs to give time for an exercise or instruction to work, rather than start by telling the horse off for not magically knowing something ;)
Click to expand...

Ah yes, know what you mean :wink3:
I'm very glad that I rode so many horses when I was younger that were likely to flick me off if I irritated them too much. Gives you an awful lot of patience as well as recognition and appreciation of the small trys that a horse makes when you're teaching them something.
 
DabDab said:
Gives you an awful lot of patience as well as recognition and appreciation of the small trys that a horse makes when you're teaching them something.
Click to expand...

it's the thing I love most about training horses :) how it makes you develop as a person, at the same time as developing the horse :) I just love getting in the zone and looking for the way in with a horse. I get a bit zen. :o
 
Absolutely with a hot horse they have to accept your leg, and yes also to keeping the leg a slight shock to the lazier inclined horse. A useful exercise I find is to walk on a 18/20m circle and bring your inside leg back and push the quarters to the outside of the circle, then make them straight on the circle, then bring your outside leg back and push the quarters in on the circle, then finish by making the horse straight again on the circle. This helps you control the hindquarters, gives the horse the idea that you are allowed/able to control the quarters, and it also allows the hotter horse to accept your leg without dashing off. Make sure whilst on the circle you keep the shoulders on the line at all times, and dont alllow any more neck bend than you would usually have walking on that size circle.
 
I tend to just work on transitions up and down the gears if my boy seems a little slow off the leg. He generally isnt, but he sometimes just needs a reminder to sharpen up. I just keep doing that until only a slight movement of my leg is needed to get him to move forward properly, then we can work on other stuff. Maybe just take it back to that until she gets that perfect, as theres no point moving onto anything else if the horse doesnt understand when to move forwards.
 
SEL said:
I thought it was just the angle of the photo!
Click to expand...

But she's standing on a hill, right? 🤔 She does look bonkersly uphill in that pic ! Interesting what you say re giving the impression of being engaged though. F has a naturally uphill canter so gets decent marks despite his rider impinging his general way of going!
 
Hmm no :o no hill, but it was clearly an unflattering pic, this is tonight at a more flattering angle:

20882659_683111591874704_969591752328479330_n.jpg


Still not super happy about that saddle! Just hacked tonight so less chance to do much 'schooling', every ride is schooling but I like hacking to be her relaxed time :).

Though going back to a stage she's confident at is definitely the idea.
 
No, sorry, still on a hill surely? Hehe. Agree your saddle looks a bit off balance and tipping back which, with that front end, isn't surprising. She's a little cracker!
 
Sometimes you just hit a block when asking for a new thing. I don't think it's entirely down to on the aids, But when you think about the basic aids are forwards and side to side they will get confused when asked to go sideways while not allowed To go forwards!
her being insanely (no bareback for you :p ) uphill shouldn't really affect her learning moves but will affect her ability to do them.

It's interesting though, What happens when you ride her up into the bit? Normally I'd be asking a horse to come together and lift via transitions and short sharpish thinking work to get them on board but not sure how I would do this with her. Suppose best method would be raised poles and trying to lower into contact (?) but could be tricky as is her confo. Ah well, sorry I digress :p

Personally I like teaching aids while hacking, it's takes away the pressures of a school lol. it could just be that she needs a months break or so and then start again?
 
milliepops said:
TBH I think this happens quite often :o Not the leg aid specifically, but getting a kind of answer from a horse when you pose them a question, thinking "yup, they've got it" and then discovering down the line that they didn't actually quite understand what you were asking, they'd just given an approximately correct response :D

It's a funny one isn't it, training horses, because they don't have a bleeding clue what we're on about and you have to explain with gestures. Like doing charades. Only they don't know any books or films even exist. Quite amazing that you can teach them anything really!

I think horses learn the correct response by guessing, so I think it's a case of keep giving the cue until they guess correctly, and then repeating with some kind of positive feedback so that the horse learns.

Like you, I find with Kira (who is really highly trainable, she guesses well, quickly) that we have to go back and re-learn things now and then because I've let a detail slip. She knew what I wanted if I rode a half pass aid, for example, in terms of bend and moving her legs just so, but she didn't know that she also needed to be parallel to the long side -that wasn't included in the set of facts she knew about HP. So we had to re-learn it, but with that additional information included.

Maybe I'll remember to include that element when I teach the next one :o :D

Same if they don't accept the rein aid, I'm quite a fan of not changing too much once the horse is given an instruction (assuming it's fair and reasonable that the horse can achieve what it's being asked of) but just keep the aid there until the horse guesses correctly. I think it's tempting to start upping the ante or adding in extra cues but really the horse needs to come to the original aid, or else you are muddling the question.
Click to expand...

It is interesting!

I think my horses understand leg yield and half pass.

Until I try and do over a stride or two, straight a stride or two, over a stride or too.

They aren’t really on the aids, they just expect to move laterally to the track / centre line! Providing I set the first stride up well!

I’ve taught them the moves versus the aids!!

Similar with offering medium on the diagonals, and simple changes from ½ ten metre circles!!

I am terrible at establishing consistent effective training, and training what I want.

For example horse can do changes but offers them when I don’t want, if thinks easier.

So I ride a counter canter movement, aim is to go true canter, counter canter loop, true canter. Horse changes, I collapse back to walk in a heap, and belatedly re-establish counter canter.

I am rubbish at either getting horse to change back next stride or rebalancing through an simple change, and putting horse back into counter canter. I am inadvertently teaching the horse if counter canter is hard work, he can escape through changes and get a break!

Problem is we tend to have landed in a heap after the unrequested flying change.

I need to a lot more on the ball!!

My instructor says horse telegraphs he’s going to change, and if I ride the counter canter correctly and effectively he wont be able to change e.g. balanced rider and horse and keep correct position and bend and energy!

Horse’s other idea is it’s all too much work and falls into trot.
 
DabDab, I agree with your canter aids point. I school changes on Chilli sometimes as something to spice things up as we only school at Elem level so it keeps her a little more interested. I've learned the hard way how to do them properly, and that relying on her previous brilliant education and flinging one leg back and keeping the other on the girth doesn't get the best change :D:o

She had a long holiday before I got her, so in the past couple of months-armed with my new found knowledge-I've re-introduced changes properly and helping her simply re-learn the aid up into canter and what my leg/seat/hand are doing differently for each rein has made the blinding difference. She is no longer just going into canter thinking as you said 'oh we're going this way so I guess it's this leg' or just guessing what I want-she knows now and as a result we're having lovely clean changes.



;):D
 
You show off you, with your lovely clean changes ;)....

I find walk to counter-canter is a good test of how 'on the aids' they are for the canter transition :). Shocked the hell out of Topaz the other day by asking for HP to SI to HP to SI (in trot), she was like woah you set me up and off I whizz what the hell are you doing upsetting my lovely rhythm with a movement change:lol:, I think both ponies are having re-fresher courses on the aids ;).
 
AH will she do the turn on the forehand in hand? Annie was totally confused when I first asked her for it (and her reaction to confusion tends to be upward :eek:, so I stopped and thought and practised it at the end of each ridden session in hand, just pushing with my hand where the leg would sit, left to right, right to left and also reverse.
Then when I retried it, I stood her along the arena fence and went from there, worked a treat.
With regards to the reactive to aids - if you find a total cure let me know, working on small circles, serpentines helps madam relax to the leg as it means that she has to accept the aid to move around, lots of changes of direction mean that she can't get too sure that she knows what she's doing/where she's going and stops her trying to take over :)
 
She was fine in-hand, but and a big but considering the epiphany, still not 'accepting' the aid as it were. So she moved away from even the hand near her and not even touching, so still a bit more of an over-reaction than ideal? I persisted in hand with holding my hand on her (even though near got the wanted movement, but she needed to accept being touched for it to relate to a leg aid) and she relaxed and stopped overreacting so progress and something to continue :).

I will also not :o be trying tof next to the fence again as I think it made her feel trapped and revert back to her nappy/ confused tantrum move. You live and learn.

We do lots of circles, serpentines too to get my leg on, quite often we have a little discussion and then I can get my leg on 'hugging' her and a little stronger than I'd like but it gives her the confidence and stability she seems to prefer, wishy washy leg aids need not apply with this one :o.
 
AlexHyde said:
I will also not :o be trying tof next to the fence again as I think it made her feel trapped and revert back to her nappy/ confused tantrum move. You live and learn.
Click to expand...
Yikes - what works for one and all that! I'm ok just with the fence alongside me, trainer first asked me to do them facing it - that was erm.... interesting! On the Yob it resulted in him trying to climb the indoor school :o Usually find stood along it just gives them something to move away from. Now we can happily get them wherever (only feeling slightly smug as it's one of our few "good" moves ;-) gotta have a few training wins somewhere!)
 
Yeah I thought nothing of trying alongside the fence as it's a fairly well established route to teach them, we were fine until we faced the fence and then erm :o we were not fine, so a feeling of being trapped and running away from the leg = baby frustration.

Well done of your win :), mine's very uphill :wink3: (do not take it away from me that it's genetics and not training ;)).
 
Another way to do a turn on the forehand if the horse is a bit stressy, is to do it without halting, a sort of rolling turn on the forehand, so dont stop walking, just bring your leg back and ask, it stops the horse feeling stuck and subsequently panicy, if they are that way inclined.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top