Accetable or Cruel???

The other thing not mentioned is the force of the kick, I can kick a football hard or softly, I can use my toe to kick it or the flat of the top of my foot.

Too many shades of grey for me, I don't think this person was cruel. What would you all be saying if she smacked the horse once and it did it again, only this time connecting with your childs face?

I think I know the answer.
 
Don't agree with the repeated kicking, esp with steel toe cap - due to damage it may cause.
If safa to do so, a loud "no" and poss a slap. Has to be immediate though.

On another note, I once saw someone try to kick her horse when it bit her (she was at the front end), she fell over, foot caught in reins, horse broke free and dragged her along on her back for a few feet. She was someone who was proud of being hard on her horses, and ended up sore and looking daft. I admit it was a bit of a freak thing to happen though.
 
Personally, I dont think it is right, but its their own horse and their way of dealing with its behavior. My farrier kicked my pony in the belly and to say the least I wasnt happy, mainly because she had an umbilical hernia as a youngster and had to be operated on and he was kicking right on the scar. I dont like it if people use that kind of discipline on a horse that isnt theirs because they dont know about its past but if its their own horse.....well we just have to deal with it.
 
I don't agree with kicking a horse in the belly, or violance in general, but have kicked back with the top of my foot aimed at the quarters as it comes down to the hock, and only once, I think it depends on the situation they are in when they kick, as already said it is what would happen in a herd, as it happens on a ride on Sunday my friends pony lashed out at my boy, totaly out of character, got my lad on the inside of his hind leg, nasty cut, my lads reaction was to double barrel him back, luckely got other pony's chest and neck and not my freinds leg, but point is it is how they react to that sort of act on themselves.
 
Cruel and absolutely unnecessary. Whatever happened to patience and teaching a horse good ground manners? Using a hand on a stick if necessary to get them used to being touched all over etc.

Shame the horse is in horrible hands like that.
 
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I might be going against the grain here but if a horse kicks it could potentially KILL someone, I know two people who have had their faces reconstructed after being kicked. Considering what horses do to each other, I wouldn't hesitate to kick him if he kicked out.

Better than him getting away with it and doing it next time as a child walks past....

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Agree 100% and was thinking this while reading the OP.
There is such a thing as being too cruel, but there is such a thing as being too soft as well.
 
Not sure kicking repeatedly in the belly is acceptable. Would depend on the situation i suppose.

Merlin, when learning to pick his back feet up, i allowed him a little bit of thrashing about as he was learning and trying to balance, but once the thrashing about continued more than i thought necessary and became closer and closer to actually kicking me each time. He got a slap on the bum for that and has managed since to not do it!
 
so atleast three of us agree lol =oP
And as an after thought.. By jaws killing today.. Sure Ive got a bit of an infection.

Sorry self pity lol!!!
Lou x
 
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I personally would never kick a horse in the guts having seen the damage a mis aimed kick can do to the area under their belly.

BUT I would have given it a rather sharp smack for lashing out. Legs stay on the ground unless asked to be lifted or they are being lifted in a purely vertical motion due to flies. Legs coming out in any other direction for any reason what so ever is totally and utterly unacceptable.

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I agree with that. I'm normally one to say loads of things are cruel! I am never one to beat my horses up etc. by any means - far from it. However, if a horse tries to actually be agressive to me then IMO that needs sorting immediately. If a horse tried to kick me (and properly, not because they were aiming it at another horse or because Id asked for it etc.) - then I would kick him in the butt back! I wouldnt kick in the stomach or anything though. It all depends on the horse and situation though, for example if the horse was genuinely scared about something and kicked then I would never kick him!
 
I would never ever repeatedly kick a horse- but I would give a one off short sharp smack/bite as they need to know what is not acceptable- they do it to each other in the field- and having seen a horse kick a 12 year od girl in the face a couple of years ago- and seeing the devistation to her life- I would rather teach it with an instant reprimand than it try it on again- imagine if your horse kicked another persons child!

I find that they soon understand as long as the responce is instant to their action and is only short- continuous beating will not teach the horse anything other than to be fearful.
 
I can't stand people who have let their horses develop a habit of kicking. I've only been kicked twice and it was by other people's horses, one in particular you have to be very careful around as it is just incredibly badly behaved - it kicked the owner in the head once. It is your duty as an owner to train your horse to make it clear to them that they have to behave around humans.

But I wouldn't kick a horse in the belly for kicking - its disproportionate. Perhaps the person concerned paniced and over-reacted? A roar or an instant slap in an appropriate place perhaps. I do think its actually cruel in the long term though to let horses away with bad behaviour and treat them as if they are some precious gems who must'nt ever have anything unpleasant happen to them, as it has a tendency to make them difficult and to work their way further down the food chain as people find it difficult to do anything with them.
 
I have kicked a youngster when it booted me he while eating, it was naughty kick and he got a boot back straight away (nothing major but it was a quick reaction that startled him and put him in his place...it scared him more than pained him trust me), I knew why he kicked and he knew that it was not acceptable and he knew why he got booted back, it was just the once and never in his 9 years did he do it again.

However I would not repeatly kick a horse, that to me is disgusting behaviour, because this is not what would happen in a heard, the horse would get lashed out at, then the other horse would be free to move out of the way because he'd learnt he'd done wrong, a horse that is tied up where a person is attacking the horse because they have not kept their cool, lost their temper and taken it out on the horse, well that would down right appal me and would of very much upset me to see something like that.

Respect works both ways.
 
totally unacceptable. I also feel the same about people who bite their toddlers to stop them nipping!! WTF it's naughty to bite, but ok if i do ot to you!!!
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Both my previous horses tested with a bite & kick once - the kick earned a foot to the back of the leg below the bum - sideways NOT with the toe of the boot so more like a a very hard slap and a shout and the bites received a bite back to the nose. Neither of them EVER kicked out or bit again and I never even marked them but you do have to retaliate very quickly so they associate the telling off with the bad behaviour.

I did have a friend who kicked a horse in the stomach twice for messing about - thankfully NOT with her usual steel toe capped boots !! He was a nervous wreck for hours afterwards if you went near the side she'd kicked (OK the other side). Thankfully he wasn't yet under saddle as I don't think she'd have got tack on him !!
 
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Oh Nailed, OUCH!

I have watched horses at length in the field, biting each other, kicking out - all in play and have come to the distinct decision that horses are a lot tougher than we think and can withstand and not feel a great deal, if they bite and kick in play imagine what they do to each other when they mean it.

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kicking out, yes - connecting, rarely.

Te arguement that horses do it so therefore its ok for us to doesn't add up. Horses in the wild breed foals as young as 18 months old. To me thats not a good enough reason for us to deliberately breed them at tat age - same principal here for me. You are much more likely to injure a horse with a kick than a hefty slap, and IMO you should not kick a horse. There aremore than enough other ways of reprimanding them without needing that method.
 
To bloody right too, if my youngsters kicked me I'd hit them or kick them! And no, they probably wouldn't do it again. Too many horses are never punished, which results in all these badly behaved horses.
 
Horses are too big and pwerful to mess around with. Repeated kicking and hitting is unacceptable but something has to be done to try and prevent it happening again.
When i first got my young mare, she was very green and unused to being handled much. On one of the first days i had her, she decided she didnt much like being brushed and violently kicked out. I swiftly kicked her back and made a lot of noise. Scared the life out of her, more with the shouting i think and she has never done it again.
I am always very quiet with her, but if she behaves in a way that is unacceptable, then she is put back in her place. She is not scared of me in the slightest, but she respects my space and we enjoy a great bond.
As others have said, horses use their teeth and hind legs in the field to let each other know how they feel, and as long as you dont lash out in temper or for any little thing I think a quick kick can work quite well.
 
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Totally unnacceptable - perhaps her time would have been better spent trying to work out why the horse lashed out in the first place. Horses won't do that for no reason.

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Yes of course. When a horse tries to kick me I always find myself asking "why would the horse do that? I really must ask him after I repair my broken arm/leg/skull"

I don't care WHY a horse thinks it can kick, it probably has a very legit answer ie "I don't like you picking my feet" or, "My tummy aches" or "There's a fly on my left arse cheek"...

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Plus if you leave it for a bit then decide to react to it the horse will be like "what did i just do?"

Exactly. The horse shouldnt be lashing out at people in the first place - although if it is nervous of people in general then it may be much more complicated.
 
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To bloody right too, if my youngsters kicked me I'd hit them or kick them! And no, they probably wouldn't do it again. Too many horses are never punished, which results in all these badly behaved horses.

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What she said.
 

QR - I haven't read all the responses but I if my yearling raises a hoof at me, I will kick her back - on the quarters. Well, I have done this once actually, and she han't raised a hoof to me since....

She has never bitten me. She wouldn't dare.
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If my youngster tried to kick me I'd knee it in the ribs back... Horses are too dangerous to mess with. Poster above said they only had to slap horse a few times slapping it when it kicked, for me this is a few too many. Its OK a horsey adult avoiding a kick, but busy shows and kids on the yard mean I don't want any risk atall. The damage I can cause is incomparable to the danage a kicker could cause. Has anyone seen a mare or older horses disciplining youngsters? That is how they learn best...
 
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I don't care WHY a horse thinks it can kick,

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That's a real shame - it is attitudes like that that cause so many behavioural problems in the first place.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting for one moment that some kind of reprimand wasn't appropriate - but this? Really? It it honestly okay to punish a horse for doing something that could cause severe pain or injury to a person by causing the horse potentially severe pain or injury?
 
I got kicked in the face quite a few years ago by a friends horse. I ended up with chipped teeth and stitches in my chin. If I hadn't have been lying on the floor bleeding profusely I think I could have quite happily kicked it from one end of the village to the other.

I have never kicked any of my horses (or bitten for that matter) but they aren't the type to sneak a crafty one in anyway.
 
I don't think for one minute that a horse should not be reprimanded for misbehaving, and yes it should be instant.
Kicking is seriously is just a bit over the top. The horse wasn't kicked once but serveral and at each strike you hear it grunt. THe fact that it pulled back and broke free says it was obviously very bothered by the event.
Tell it off by all means, but respect is a two way thing and kicking it won't have created respect more like a fear response. Or maybe even the other way, make a horse fear enough they do what comes naturally defend themselves. What keeps predators at bay the best but their legs. In some instances this action could create a truly dangerous horse for doing what come naturally.
 
I've not read all the way through, but if one of mine went to kick me proper (I'm not talking waggling a leg vaguley in my direction, that would warrant a smack and a shout which does the trick), I would aim a kick back at them instantly as well as yell at them. A kicker is dangerous, whereas a kick from a person is not going to cause any damage. That said I wouldn't condone repeated bootings/whippings or anything like that, nor any punishment unless it is instant.

I have kicked my mare once, as she flew at me once in the stable, span round and kicked out. There was no reason for it, other than her being in a bad mood, so she got a kick back in the side of her bum. She was blatently shocked and was very very sulky afterwards (she sulks if she gets shouted at).....she has not kicked since.

Someone at our yard went and tied their horse up infront of another, close enough so the horse behind sniffed the others bum, and he kicked out. The owner dragged him away yelling at him and then started laying into him, whipping him round the neck with a lead rein and kicking him in the belly. That I thought was unacceptable.
 
I agree that kicking it a number of times is wrong, completly.
But, if you do kick a horse, they will try and get away and break free.
I think you have witnessed exteme behaviour that is totally unacceptable, and that is always horrible. But, as I said, a quick kick and a shout left my horse in no doubt that what she did was not acceptable behavior and she hasn't repeated it since.
 
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totally unacceptable. I also feel the same about people who bite their toddlers to stop them nipping!! WTF it's naughty to bite, but ok if i do ot to you!!!
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This has made me LOL - a child has powers of reasoning well beyond that of a horse. A horse simply cannot and does not think 'well you did it to me so it must be ok for me to do it to you'. They just do not reason like that, and it is preposterous to think they do!
 
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totally unacceptable. I also feel the same about people who bite their toddlers to stop them nipping!! WTF it's naughty to bite, but ok if i do ot to you!!!
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This has made me LOL - a child has powers of reasoning well beyond that of a horse. A horse simply cannot and does not think 'well you did it to me so it must be ok for me to do it to you'. They just do not reason like that, and it is preposterous to think they do!

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Agree completely SC
 
Agree with SC too, that made me laugh!!!

Have to say there is a big difference between teaching a horse to respect you and being cruel. About a week after my horse arrived he raised a leg and kicked out at me (fairly half heartedly) when i was washing his back legs. I kicked him back, once. It shocked him far more than hurt him but he's never raised a leg to me again so it worked!!
 
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QR - I haven't read all the responses but if my yearling raises a hoof at me, I will kick her back - on the quarters. Well, I have done this once actually, and she han't raised a hoof to me since....

She has never bitten me. She wouldn't dare.
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Same here.
 
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