Accetable or Cruel???

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I don't care WHY a horse thinks it can kick,

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That's a real shame - it is attitudes like that that cause so many behavioural problems in the first place.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting for one moment that some kind of reprimand wasn't appropriate - but this? Really? It it honestly okay to punish a horse for doing something that could cause severe pain or injury to a person by causing the horse potentially severe pain or injury?

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All the horses I handle get told off in no uncertain terms if they step out of line. If that means a kick or a smack, so be it. I DO NOT cause severe pain or injury and it's wrong of you to interpret TheDisreputableDog's comments to mean or justify that.
 
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Totally unnacceptable - perhaps her time would have been better spent trying to work out why the horse lashed out in the first place. Horses won't do that for no reason.

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I'd much rather stop the kicking and biting BEFORE it becomes a habit than try and work out afterwards why my horse treats me like a human punchbag.
 
It's interesting that there are 2 clear schools of thought here.

I fall into the camp, which is probs old fashioned. People have stated that kicking & smacking horses results in them being nervous and becoming problem animals. In my experience problem horses (on the current scale) are a fairly new phenomenon and brought about as a result of people applying human logic to a horse.
The only logic you need to understand is cause and effect.
They think that being kind and reasonable in human terms will lead to a well behaved horse, when it seems from their vast experience of problem horses that it leads to - well problem horses.

I rarely smack or really raise my voice to my horses - beyond the first time. As soon as they get rude with me I will retaliate in an appropriate way and we get on fine from then on.
If a youngster kicked me or went to kick me I would shout and make it back up, probs smack it BUT if I didn't want to get too close then I may well kick it back.

If it did it twice then I may think about what is going on and do nothing till I had a strategy, like a fake hand if I think it's a dislike of having back legs touched.

I would virtually never respond in the first instance though with a little growl & a stern look, that's the kind of thinking which ruins horses.
 

oh dear god, I'm back on the Monty bloody Roberts forum. Same old debate, agree with Papafrita BUT whatever way you or anyone else words it Smack will = cruel. Kick = cruel no matter what you say.

Some horses push bounderies esp youngsters - fact. Allow them to kick you, think about why it happened until you're in a hospital bed or worse. One smack does not scar a cocky horse for life.

and don't get me started on the posters comparing biting and kicking to kids - come on, what earth are you on!?!!
 
Many apologies if I implied that DisreputableDog would cause pain or injury to a horse - that was my badly-linked wording, following directly on from her comment about my post.

I do absolutely agree that any horse stepping out of line must be dealt with - in fact I think everyone posting seems to agree this. The area of dispute is solely over whether the particular treatment that this horse was subjected to was reasonable. It is true that we don't have all the facts though.

I'm not for one moment suggesting that anyone should allow a horse to behave in this way, and they certainly shouldn't be having to deal with it from a hospital bed!! Discipline, very firm when necessary, is essential - all I am suggesting, along with many others, is that this particular treatment appears to have been dealt out in anger. One smack is reasonable, repeated kicking to the belly is not.
 

Agreed, the amount of kicking described by op in my opinion is ott and definetly cruel
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In my experience problem horses (on the current scale) are a fairly new phenomenon and brought about as a result of people applying human logic to a horse.
The only logic you need to understand is cause and effect.
They think that being kind and reasonable in human terms will lead to a well behaved horse, when it seems from their vast experience of problem horses that it leads to - well problem horses.


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Couldn't have put it better myself.

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I rarely smack or really raise my voice to my horses - beyond the first time. As soon as they get rude with me I will retaliate in an appropriate way and we get on fine from then on.


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Same here, my horses all know where the line is and rarely try to cross it. When they do they get a sharp smack and a growl that put them back on the safe side of the line. I often have people compliment how easy my horse is to handle in and out the stable...reason being I don't tolerate any bad habit...well except the weaving but she know's not to do that if I'm there to see it!
 
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I can't stand people who have let their horses develop a habit of kicking. I've only been kicked twice and it was by other people's horses, one in particular you have to be very careful around as it is just incredibly badly behaved - it kicked the owner in the head once. It is your duty as an owner to train your horse to make it clear to them that they have to behave around humans.

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My horses are barely reprimanded for anything (cos they are such good boys;-) ) and i don't even use a stick when riding; however if one of them intentionally went to kick or bite I would clobber them into the middle of next week ; not repeatedly obviously, but it would be immediate, with a reasonable amount of force (smack / boot up the bum..whatever was closest to hand as it were) but more importantly with the pyschological intention that I was going to absolutely kill them! The horse would absolutely know that was not acceptable - no debate
My friend was kicked in the face and had to have several reconstructive surgeries ; the damage they can do is untold and personally I believe that intentional kicking and biting is a behaviour than absolutely cannot be tolerated.
I couldn't live with myself if my horse seriously damaged, or even killed someone..especially if I hadn't done absolutely everything possible to prevent it. And if that includes having to manage out a nervous horse afterwards, so be it.
Now, if they were clarting on in the field and legs were flying and i happened to get caught in the cross fire , then I'd just be a idiot for not getting out of the way quicker
 
To DisreputableDog,

Hello DisreputableDog, I have tried to PM you but every time I do my computer crashes so this will be public! It has been pointed out on here that, in one of my posts, I gave the impression that I believed you would find it acceptable to cause a horse pain or injury. This was absolutely not my intention. I badly linked the two paragraphs and I can see, on rereading it, that this could easily have given that impression though, for which I apologise most profusely! I am sure that there are many issues on which we (and others) would agree or disagree but I do not for one moment believe that you would wilfully cause a horse severe pain or injury. Please accept my apology?

Camilla XX
 
obviously anything done to excess is going to create problems but often giving a horse a quick kick is an effective way to stop an unwanted behaviour before it develops and to gain instant respect from the horse. i think it shocks rather than hurts it although obviously a strong man kicking a horse is going to be felt more than a small girl.

I would say what the OP described was a bit ott and and causing the horse to break free could well create another problem but in general i think kicking a horse looks worse than it actually is. when i first saw my old boss do it i thought OH MY GOD but if used appropriately it is imo better for the horse than dragging a punishment out by shouting and smacking which really does nothing but confuse and cause more stress to the horse
 
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I might be going against the grain here but if a horse kicks it could potentially KILL someone, I know two people who have had their faces reconstructed after being kicked. Considering what horses do to each other, I wouldn't hesitate to kick him if he kicked out.

Better than him getting away with it and doing it next time as a child walks past....

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Hmmmm, my view is if you get kicked you were too close......
Or....... your horse doesn't trust you and is scared.......
Or........ someone else has got to that horse first......
Or....... you moved too quick and scared him.

As for a horse kicking a child ................would you allow your child to be in kicking range of a horse? I certainly wouldn't.
 
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Totally unnacceptable - perhaps her time would have been better spent trying to work out why the horse lashed out in the first place. Horses won't do that for no reason.

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I'd much rather stop the kicking and biting BEFORE it becomes a habit than try and work out afterwards why my horse treats me like a human punchbag.

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This^^^^^

I don't think repeated kicking is ok, but TBH if I feel a horse is about to kick or is backing p to me, I'll do what is instant reaction, which to me would be a sharp NO or growl and a slap
 
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Well if you spend a little time watching horses in the field, you'll see how horses teach each other. Maybe that will ched a little light for you on how horses are used to being taught..

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Thats a bit harsh ( and wrong)

Horses do not just run up to each other in the field and kick each other in the stomach.

They will have sent out signals first ie get outta my way or move. IF the other horse does not react to the signal THEN horse no 1 will react by chasing the other horse away - only making contact if the other horse has not moved or turns to challenge.

Punishment is being sent outside the herd and kept there - not being kicked in the stomach.
 
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The other thing not mentioned is the force of the kick, I can kick a football hard or softly, I can use my toe to kick it or the flat of the top of my foot.

Too many shades of grey for me, I don't think this person was cruel. What would you all be saying if she smacked the horse once and it did it again, only this time connecting with your childs face?

I think I know the answer.

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You have just made my point brilliantly.

If you smack a horse as it is thinking of kicking out you are just as likely to cause the reaction as stop it.

As I said before, if this "person" you mentioned allowed the child to be in kick range and the child got kicked would that be the horses fault - I think not. Horses are prey animals - easily spooked and very fast to react - you will never change that 100%

Given the choice, most horses would run away when spooked but we tie them up so they can't move their feet and get away - why are some people then soooooo suprised when they react?


I would like to offer one word here - RESPECT -
it works both ways and if you earn the respect of a horse the chances of getting kicked or bitten are very low.

I have never seen respect earned by repeated belly kicking!

Watch horses with each other, the boss is the one who moves the other horse around.
 
So if you would not allow a child 'within kicking range', does that by association mean children should not ride? I rode from about 18 months, and was still pre school age when I started to groom a horse under supervision. At the riding school I taught at, we had many children who rode, and once they were competent to handle the horse (i.e. not complete beginners) they brought their horses up from the stables under supervision, and sometimes brushed off the ponies. We did stable management courses and own a pony days in the school holidays, where the children caught, groomed, tacked up, rode, bathed, fed etc their horses.

I am not saying that babies should be crawling around a horses back legs unsupervised, but I don't see why children should not be allowed near a horse. Our ponies and horses were taught sharpish not to kick - I far prefer the use of voice over any other method, and it works very well in my experience, however, sometimes a smack is appropriate when something is done with menace (as opposed to a fly etc). I have also found that biting a nippy pony back (on the ear) works incredibly well, although the person ends up with hair in their mouth. I have never kicked a horse, and I have never hit a horse in anger. My responses are measured and appropriate to the situation. As a result, I cannot think of a single occasion where a child was kicked by a horse or pony under my care.
 
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So if you would not allow a child 'within kicking range', does that by association mean children should not ride? I rode from about 18 months, and was still pre school age when I started to groom a horse under supervision. At the riding school I taught at, we had many children who rode, and once they were competent to handle the horse (i.e. not complete beginners) they brought their horses up from the stables under supervision, and sometimes brushed off the ponies. We did stable management courses and own a pony days in the school holidays, where the children caught, groomed, tacked up, rode, bathed, fed etc their horses.

I am not saying that babies should be crawling around a horses back legs unsupervised, but I don't see why children should not be allowed near a horse. Our ponies and horses were taught sharpish not to kick - I far prefer the use of voice over any other method, and it works very well in my experience, however, sometimes a smack is appropriate when something is done with menace (as opposed to a fly etc). I have also found that biting a nippy pony back (on the ear) works incredibly well, although the person ends up with hair in their mouth. I have never kicked a horse, and I have never hit a horse in anger. My responses are measured and appropriate to the situation. As a result, I cannot think of a single occasion where a child was kicked by a horse or pony under my care. [/quote



Again I agree, my point is that horses should be treated with respect and handled by people who understand their nature.

Of course children should be around horses and ponies but always supervised and always around well mannered suitable ponies. Once they have learned ( from a responsible adult such as yourself) how to be around horses and how to handle situations and more importantly read the horse they will be able to "go it alone" and be as safe as possible.

What I am actually refering to is situations like I encountered this week whereby I was trying to treat a horse in a yard that was like a bear garden - running alive with out of control kids, dogs and I have to say, older owners ( the parents of some of the wild children)

In the short time I was on this yard the dogs were chasing each other round and round ( including running between the horses legs) the children were doing the same and screaming loudly ( one actuallyu cannoned into the back of the poor neddy with a bike!!!!!!
The parents thought it was hysterically funny and spent the whole time either screaming at the dogs or kids and smacking the poor horse when it dared to move. Lovely.
 
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So if you would not allow a child 'within kicking range', does that by association mean children should not ride? I rode from about 18 months, and was still pre school age when I started to groom a horse under supervision. At the riding school I taught at, we had many children who rode, and once they were competent to handle the horse (i.e. not complete beginners) they brought their horses up from the stables under supervision, and sometimes brushed off the ponies. We did stable management courses and own a pony days in the school holidays, where the children caught, groomed, tacked up, rode, bathed, fed etc their horses.

I am not saying that babies should be crawling around a horses back legs unsupervised, but I don't see why children should not be allowed near a horse. Our ponies and horses were taught sharpish not to kick - I far prefer the use of voice over any other method, and it works very well in my experience, however, sometimes a smack is appropriate when something is done with menace (as opposed to a fly etc). I have also found that biting a nippy pony back (on the ear) works incredibly well, although the person ends up with hair in their mouth. I have never kicked a horse, and I have never hit a horse in anger. My responses are measured and appropriate to the situation. As a result, I cannot think of a single occasion where a child was kicked by a horse or pony under my care. [/quote



Again I agree, my point is that horses should be treated with respect and handled by people who understand their nature.

Of course children should be around horses and ponies but always supervised and always around well mannered suitable ponies. Once they have learned ( from a responsible adult such as yourself) how to be around horses and how to handle situations and more importantly read the horse they will be able to "go it alone" and be as safe as possible.

What I am actually refering to is situations like I encountered this week whereby I was trying to treat a horse in a yard that was like a bear garden - running alive with out of control kids, dogs and I have to say, older owners ( the parents of some of the wild children)

In the short time I was on this yard the dogs were chasing each other round and round ( including running between the horses legs) the children were doing the same and screaming loudly ( one actuallyu cannoned into the back of the poor neddy with a bike!!!!!!
The parents thought it was hysterically funny and spent the whole time either screaming at the dogs or kids and smacking the poor horse when it dared to move. Lovely.

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BUT, how does a horse become suitably mannered?!!

I'm sorry, but horses are big animals, and agree, have to have respect for us, in the same we we respect them. Reprimanding a horse is acceptable, reprimanding a horse through TEMPER isnt
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IMHO, THIS is where the line is.
 
You do not have to apologise Camilla, I have a fear aggressive horse who would never have even made it into my hands if I was at all violent or cruel towards him, I didn't even register anything suspiscious about your post TBH until I recieved your (3) pms
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Ok Araminta, I was using child as an emotive word, but substitute child for sister, brother, dad - are you seriously saying that if a horse was a known kicker and the owner had been smacking him to no avail and then it kicked and perhaps killed a family member or friend - you'd be saying "tut tut shouldnt have walked so close...!"

I know someone who got kicked by a known kicker whose owner shouted at it instead of giving it a hiding, I'd like you to tell her she was too close to it when she got kicked both barrells in the face. Some things are expected of a horse, basic manners are one of them.
 
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Kicking, kneeing, elbowing a horse in the belly is wrong. Doing it repeatedly is even worse.

However, giving a kick back at times is fine. I had a new mare earlier this year, she constantly kicked for no reason that I could find. I spent weeks working with her quietly and calmly, trying to get her used to gentle handling of her hind end. Nothing had any effect. One day, I just kicked her back on the leg. To this day she has never tried to kick again.
Yes, we need to respect horses and they also need to respect us. Somestime, a quick, sharp reprimand IS needed.
In general, I never need to even raise my voice with any of my animals, they have not all come to me like this. Most have learnt from kind, fair handling, on rare occasions, a smack or, as with this mare, a kick.
I was watching my mare and foal this morning. I couldn't actually see what the foal did, but think she may have nipped the mare. the mare - without any warnings - lunged at her and bit her. Foal was duly repentant.
I believe it is the shock factor more than any pain that teaches them. Therefore, excessive pain, as from repeated kicking/punching, is out of order, as in the OP's story.
 
My view is it would depend on the circumstances and the particular horse, I'm pretty sure if a horse kicked or bit me I would retaliate just like another horse would do in the field, an old horse tried to double barrel me a few years back, I'm sure if I had had the chance and a lump of wood in my hand I would have whacked it bloody hard, it's action was totally unacceptable, I think of myself as fair but firm.
 
I booted LC the other week for trying to squash me against the wall. He's got me before and he will take no notice of anything. So now, when he's threatening me with his ar$e end, he will get the side of my foot in it. He takes just enough notice for me to be able to breath.

Having seen and heard how the horses kick each other in the fields, I can doing nothing nearly as powerful, but as others have said, they can kill a human.
 
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You do not have to apologise Camilla, I have a fear aggressive horse who would never have even made it into my hands if I was at all violent or cruel towards him, I didn't even register anything suspiscious about your post TBH until I recieved your (3) pms
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Ok Araminta, I was using child as an emotive word, but substitute child for sister, brother, dad - are you seriously saying that if a horse was a known kicker and the owner had been smacking him to no avail and then it kicked and perhaps killed a family member or friend - you'd be saying "tut tut shouldnt have walked so close...!"

I know someone who got kicked by a known kicker whose owner shouted at it instead of giving it a hiding, I'd like you to tell her she was too close to it when she got kicked both barrells in the face. Some things are expected of a horse, basic manners are one of them.

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Of course I am not saying that.

I agree that horses are too big to be allowed to rule the roost and that in an ideal world they would all be owned by people who could " read" horses and knew how to handle them other than with aggression and a big stick ( or blue pipe) Sadly, many horses are abused either through harsh handleing or novice owners - I see this most days of my working week.


As for the person who you say was kicked in the face by a "known kicker" I feel very sorry for them but I'm afraid my face wouldn't be anywhere near a "known kicker"

As for "some things are expected of a horse and basic manners are one of them" I couldn't agree more - but it is up to the owner/ handler to teach the horse these manners in a calm and rational way ( not by beating the "*****") out of it.

One of the horses on my yard kicked out at its owner in the stable - she came out of the box, walked to the tack room, got her schooling whip, came back to the stable, went in ( by which time the horse was eating its haynet) and beat it until the whip broke ------------

Then came out laughing - that'll teach him!

Teach him what exactly? Not my idea of teaching.
 
Another horse to ascertain its dominance would kick or bite back. Too many injuries occur because some horses have no respect for the herd leader. In my mind we must be herd leaders or at least superior to that horse in the pecking order or the horse will go with its natural instinct to use teeth / hooves / barging to do what it wants. I have to say I have most certainly smacked a horse hard in very quick response to a nip or kick along with very dominant growling and posturing until that horse backed away. I dont agree with agressiveness or unnecessary force or hitting but a well timed smack is well understood by any horse
 
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Another horse to ascertain its dominance would kick or bite back. Too many injuries occur because some horses have no respect for the herd leader. In my mind we must be herd leaders or at least superior to that horse in the pecking order or the horse will go with its natural instinct to use teeth / hooves / barging to do what it wants. I have to say I have most certainly smacked a horse hard in very quick response to a nip or kick along with very dominant growling and posturing until that horse backed away. I dont agree with agressiveness or unnecessary force or hitting but a well timed smack is well understood by any horse

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YES. YES, YES

Agree 100%

I have a very dominant horse who would do nothing when I got him - he used his size against.

I couldn't match him strength wise so I had to use my brain and get him to move his feet.

He is now a lovely, well mannered horse that a child could handle safely - but - everyday he will just test my leadership.
Take a step forward into my space so I move him 2 steps back, these are very subtle little things but if they were ignored I would very soon end up with a bad mannered yob walking all over me and everyone else.
 
The problem is if a horse wants to kick you - your theory of not being close enough only works
a) when you dont need to be close to it
b) when it doesnt move from the spot it was when you judged how far away you needed to be

A horse can take a step back and kick you all in a split second, I am no ninja and it all comes back to the fact that kicking is not acceptable and being far enough away is not really workable in the real world.
 
a short smack acceptable but repeated kicking is done out of anger which is usually done because said person is actually scared and doesnt know how else to react.
I saw some nasty cow kick the shite out of her young horse at an event recently cos it tried to eat some grass whilst she was grooming it! felt like kicking the daylights out of her, hope it dumped her somewhere on the XC course, preferably in the boggy water complex
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The problem is if a horse wants to kick you - your theory of not being close enough only works
a) when you dont need to be close to it
b) when it doesnt move from the spot it was when you judged how far away you needed to be

A horse can take a step back and kick you all in a split second, I am no ninja and it all comes back to the fact that kicking is not acceptable and being far enough away is not really workable in the real world.

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You are still missing the point - you need to first work out why the horse wants to kick you and sort that. Not batter it till you feel its too scared to kick you - coz it will prob just kick someone else instead.

Most horses only kick humans for 2 reasons.

1. They are scared and feel trapped - most horses would rather run away.

2. You do something that they don't understand and it hurts them.

The last reason is that a horse has been subjected to 1 and 2 above and decideds to "get in first"
 
I don't think any of the pro kickers in this thread advocate "batter"ing it (good use of emotive language though I like it) people are saying a kick, if it cures the problem, is not cruel.
 
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I don't think any of the pro kickers in this thread advocate "batter"ing it (good use of emotive language though I like it) people are saying a kick, if it cures the problem, is not cruel.

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At no point in any of my posts did I say " a kick" was cruel.

You prob have me mixed up with someone else.

Never mind - its late
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