Action of Dutch Gag... can someone settle an argument pls?

[PapaFrita]

I thought the dutch gag was not a true gag as it doesn't have a lifting action. Is this still the case without the curb chain? BOF's son insists the action of the dutch gag is that of an 'elevator' but it certainly doesn't make PF raise her head.

 

[MillionDollar]

I'm sure the dutch gag puts pressure on the poll, and thats what it does to my horses. When they stick their head up it puts pressure on the poll and making them lower their head, thats what it does on mine anyway.

 

[PapaFrita]

Yep, that's what I thought, but then I wondered how the action would change without the curb... Do you have a curb strap on yours?

 

[k9h]

http://www.acmehorses.com/Library/Glossary.aspx?glossaryTerm=1051

 

[PapaFrita]

Hello there!! Nice to see you back on HHO

 

[MillionDollar]

No i don't, so it could be different with a curb strap...um interesting.

 

[Super_Kat]

I was talking about this not long ago in an equine practical session in college:
The action of the dutch gag is mainly poll action which would lower the head but when you pull on the reins the mouthpiece move up in the mouth (this applies to all gags) and this would cause the horse to probably raise the head therefore asking the horse to do rwo different things which must confuse the horse, hence the fact I hate gags!

 

[flyingfeet]

A dutch gag uses poll pressure until the rider pulls enough that the bit then lifts in the mouth and has the gag action.

Light hands with a dutch gag will result in poll pressure only - especially on the bottom ring.

The 'gag' action is also limited due to the rings - so on most only about an inch or so lift in the mouth.

So if your horse throws their head down, you will be better off with a running gag rather than dutch / american gag.

 

[MillionDollar]

Yeh, TBH i no longer use my Dutch gags, use a Myler comfort snaffle and a kimblewick for very strong pony.

 

[Super_Kat]

I'm in love with my pelham (with 2 reins, roundings are the work of the devil) and my skinny bradoon. Wonderful bits

 

[MillionDollar]

I love pelhams too, also with 2 reins especially for my cob when we go places! I really don't see how roundings are supposed to work?! they're stupid IMO, because again its confusing the horse.

 

[CrazyMare]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in love with my pelham (with 2 reins, roundings are the work of the devil

[/ QUOTE ]

Horay!!! Some one agrees with me! I hate seeing roundings on pelhams

 

[Super_Kat]

Roundingd are awful because the curb will always be in action when you use the reins, 2 reins rock

 

[CrazyMare]

Yup always two reins for me, I hunt and XC in a pelham, did try roundings once for less bulk in hands hating myself all the while, but pony didnt like the action so back to two reins.

In fact everything that can be done in one rein I do in two.....

 

[puddicat]

I think there's a few things that can be settled:
- Is it technically a gag - yes
- Does it have curb action - yes
- Is this a contradiction - yes
- What will be the overall action - impossible to predict because of the trade off between the two effects BUT I'd guess it would be neutral or lowering at least for medium strength aids and might do completely the opposite if you pulled hard.

The reasons I think this are below for anyone really bored...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gagging is reflex respone from pressure at the back of the toungue, so in bit terms it describes an action where the bit is moved towards the back of the mouth. In practice the action is more on the corners than the toungue. So is the dutch gag a gag? Technically yes because the mouthpiece can be moved towards the poll by rein action (it slides up the bit rings). As someone said, the larger the rings the more it can move and bigger the possible action. Having said that, gagging is an extreme unpleasnt thing to do and requires a particular strong action by the bit. I'd suspect that the size and type of action possible with a dutch gag isn't enough to gag the horse into submission if it came to a showdown but I have not evidence for that - anyone any experience here?

All gags use pressure on the poll to get the gag effect but the key issue is the balance of pressure in the horses perception. Because running gags have no leverage and the mouthpiece has a lower contact area that the headpiece the dominant action is the gagging action. (more about leverage/contact area here and a bit here)

Not only can the Dutch gag can also has curb action, but the gag action is dependent on the curb action so it only works as a gag if the reins are attached to one of lower rings otherwise its a snaffle. Unless using leverage in this way to get a gag action won't be as effective as a running gag design, plus the leverage increases the effect on the poll. The size of the ring above the bit ring determines the balance between poll force and mouthpiece force. The problem I think with trying to work out what the overall action might be is that gagging elicits a very strong response provided the bit lets you do something that unfriendly to the neddy, the construction of a Dutch Gag probably doesn't but I've never tried it - fitting it for maximum effect might get you there. Otherwise in a contest between mouthpiece pressure and poll pressure, the lowering effect would win because of the curb action - again provided it was big enough. What would be interesting is if the effect changed with the level of physical violence so in normal to strong aiding the lowering effect was dominant, but if you did pull hard enough to gag the horse I think it might bring its head up pretty blummin' quickly.

 

[Kezza]

I thought a dutch gag was not a true gag bit as the reins do not attach directly to the headpiece?? therefore it is in fact a continental snaffle...??

 

[brightmount]

We were considering getting a gag but now I'm not so sure. Both horses are strong when jumping. Currently both ridden in a cyprium loose ring french link snaffle. My daughter thinks she needs something just a bit stronger for jumping. Horse 1 is a 11 yo. sensible ride, just strong; horse 2 is a 5yo, very prancey, throws her head around sometimes and resists being pulled in the mouth (which my daughter doesn't do but she has to work for control sometimes).

Any suggestions?

 

[Kezza]

my boy goes nicely in a continental snaffle with french link mouthpiece and reins on ring below snaffle ring. It's not sharp and a lovely step up from a snaffle, maybe try it with the reins on the snaffle ring first as that will give slightly different action to a normal loose ring snaffle to see if that does it? As for the 5 yr old, I wouldn't like to comment without seeing the horse and rider as it sounds very sensitive ...

 

[brightmount]

Thanks, good suggestion. The 5 yo is just a baby really and gets excited about jumping! My daughter came 3rd on her in a SJ competition yesterday, but I was watching through my fingers lol!

 

[Chex]

I've read so much contradicting stuff on this that I don't understand, so I can only speak form personal experience. With Chex it lifts his head, if I use a pelham his head gets lower and I have no brakes, but with the dutch gag it raises his head (albeit a little too high!) but at least he listens to it, and I can stop.
I know with Chex it uses absolutely no poll pressure, because the cheek pieces stick out when I put pressure on the reins (no matter how tight they are, it happens with a snaffle too). Its the first bit I turn to if I can't stop, BUT I only use it for a fortnight or so, then back to my myler snaffle. I wouldn't like to use it all the time.

 

[Kezza]

don;t forget it also hugely depends on the rider, I donlt like to have anything which feels "sharp" on my ge gees whereas other people might say mine is too much of a handful in the continental, I like to be able to hold him when I need to and then release without it jabbing my boy and resulting in him throwing his head up in retaliation (sp?). I once tried a kimblewick on him and whilst I had total control, he was not forward enough and I knew it was just too much for him. I prefer something a little more on the softer side than the hard side even though I sometimes end up with aching arms!

 

[puddicat]

I've heard this too but I don't think its a sensible way of defining a gag because (1) other classes of bit are defined by the type of action they have and not the details of how it is achieved - this seems sensible becasue the same action can sometiomes be obtained in various ways. (2) it would be possible to have a bit with the reins attached to the headpiece that had no gag action (3) the name 'gag' referes to what it does/how it works rather than the mechanism.

lynwood: I'd be interested to hear views of people like henryhorn on this but in my book a gag isn't just a slightly stronger bit, the point of it is to elicit a particular and extreme reflex response from the horse that is on the boundaries of being out of control which you only get if you use it strongly. There's a difference between this and just applying pressure to sensitive bitting points. One could argue that if you don't use a gag strongly its OK as it just applies pressure but are there are nicer and more effective places to apply pressure to so another bit might be a better option.

 

[Tia]

Sorry but I copied and pasted a previous reply of mine to this discussion.

"A Dutch gag actually has leverage aswell as action which will raise the head. This is because of the rings on this bit. When the reins are used on a lower ring then all rings have a totally separate action.

If your reins are connected only to the lowest ring then when you pull the reins the cheekpiece ring moves forward and drags the bridle downwards. This is your poll pressure and it is this which encourages him to lower his head.

However because the mouthpiece is on a separate sliding ring, once the mouthpiece reaches the end of it's sliding action and hits the cheekpiece ring this will make the horse lift his head."

The only difference between what happens without a curb strap and what happens with a curb strap is the time it takes for the horse to react.

 

[puddicat]

Quote: However because the mouthpiece is on a separate sliding ring, once the mouthpiece reaches the end of it's sliding action and hits the cheekpiece ring this will make the horse lift his head.

I don't understand why, surely once the mouthpiece reaches the cheek-ring the bit acts like a normal curb ad would lower the head, so basically if you haven;t gagged the horse by the time the mouthpiece reaches the end of its travel I can see why it would raise the horse's head at that point if you pulled harder?

 

[PapaFrita]

[ QUOTE ]
my boy goes nicely in a continental snaffle with french link mouthpiece and reins on ring below snaffle ring.

[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't a continental snaffle the same thing as a dutch gag?

 

[puddicat]

I thought so too - maybe it depends whether you're using it in the Netherlands!

 

[kirstyfk]

I really don't like dutch gags and neither do the horses I have used it in! I don't like the action and I just feel there is too much metal. (this, i feel, doesn't help steering) I detest seeing little children galloping arouns SJ courses on the last ring.

lynwood - the best thing to do is borrow as many bits as you can a try them out. They may just need a copper roller or the like. I also think the Dr Bristol is a very useful bit even if it has gone out of fashion!

 

[PapaFrita]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought so too - maybe it depends whether you're using it in the Netherlands!

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, if you're using it over here, it's called a Pessoa

 

[PapaFrita]

I was always told they were the work of Satan, but in lieu of other alternatives tried a happy mouth straight bar on PF for jumping and she goes really well in it. Much better than the kimblewick.

 

[showjumperzoe]

A detch gag/3 ring snaffle does not have the action of a gag. As the action of the 3 ring snaffle is to lower the head not raise it like a gag. The curb or back strap is to prevent the ring that the mouthpiece is attacted to to over rotate.