Action of Dutch Gag... can someone settle an argument pls?

[puddicat]

A detch gag/3 ring snaffle does not have the action of a gag. As the action of the 3 ring snaffle is to lower the head not raise it like a gag. The curb or back strap is to prevent the ring that the mouthpiece is attacted to to over rotate.

Its not that simple unfortunately. Read previous posts on this thread for an explanation why. The text book you've refd. is below the level of the discussion we've been having and the diagram on the left is incorrect if its suggesting the head is lowered with the rein on the bit ring.

A effect of a curb is primarily to add an additional pressure point, and increase pressure elsewhere it will restrict the movemet of the bit its attached to but to think that is its purpose is to miss the point somewhat.

Now I'm interested! who wrote the textbook???

 

[Nikiolola]

sorry if I'm being thick here, as most of this discussion is way over my head anyway, but doesn't the curb strap stop the top rings sliding around on the horses cheeks, meaning that only downwards pressure is applied? That's how I understood it.

A dutch gag with a curb works well for me and my horse. Have never ever seen anybody else use a curb strap around here though.

 

[showjumperzoe]

The person who wrote the book isElwyn Hartley Edwards. The name of the book is The complete book of bits and bitting

 

[showjumperzoe]

 

[Tia]

Good point and one which does not necessarily make sense.

Physics tells us that this bit should be incapable of raising the head. The only action which makes sense is that the "pull" has to be down and back.......it cannot possibly be any other way........however we know that it can! And that's where the problem arises.

All aspects of the bridle, bit and reins remain logical - never ever can the "pull" go up or forward........but then we introduce the horse into the equation; they don't necessarily conform to consistency; they react individually. Some will work with the action of the bit, some will resist; so perhaps this is where our problem with understanding this bit has arisen from?

Jeez it's all so complicated eh?

 

[puddicat]

Yes I think so too, I guess it's semantics whether you say "the curb adds adds to the the curb effect" or "it prevents the gag effect" as both are true but I think the purist would say there are other ways of preventing actions without adding new ones (you could just fix the mouthpiece for example) so the significance of adding a curb is that you increase the curb effect - and by the way that will limit the gag effect by preventing the rotation of the bit rings as well. Its just down to what you consider to be most important really.

 

[puddicat]

The person who wrote the book is Elwyn Hartley Edwards

Thanks for that. Hmmmm the god of saddlery, one of the few remaining members of the 'old school' of british horsemen and a really nice bloke. Well I'd trust him to bit a bridle a giraffe if anyone could so I'll hunt out the book and read carefully but the diagram on the left looks wrong. I like the other article you've posted except in the "Mildest action" paragraph it seems to suggest that the rein on the bit causes head lowering which I disagree with. Mind you the article mentions EHE's book so maybe that was its source of reference.

 

[puddicat]

Ah now this might be the snag...

Physics tells us that this bit should be incapable of raising the head.

Oh no it doesn't, I can send you a very detailed explanation of the mechanics if you want.

The only action which makes sense is that the "pull" has to be down and back.......it cannot possibly be any other way........however we know that it can! And that's where the problem arises.

Ooooo yes it can be another way, in fact, it is. There is no contradition in what the horse does and what the bit does.

All aspects of the bridle, bit and reins remain logical - never ever can the "pull" go up or forward........but then we introduce the horse into the equation; they don't necessarily conform to consistency; they react individually. Some will work with the action of the bit, some will resist; so perhaps this is where our problem with understanding this bit has arisen from?

I don't think so. I think the first problem is that the fundamentals of bitting which were known and described in detail before and after WW2 have been lost and don't figure in modern horse books. So the simple idea that the action of a bridle is the sum of actions on the various contact points on the horse head has been lost. The reason our friend the Dutch gag/Pessoa/Continental bit is difficult to understand is that it has lots of individual actions and unless you have some idea of how to add them up, you will have no idea what the total effect will be.

The second problem is that few people understand mechanics and without that understanding it is impossible to translate rein force into the pressures applied to the various parts of the horse's head. Its not something that is explained in text books so you either know for other reasons or you're a bit stumped. So one of the main issues with this bit is the relationship between the amount of pressure applied to the poll and the amount and direction of pressure applied to the mouth. To be able to say anything about the total action of a bit you've got to be able to put numbers on the size of these contradictory effects. So the comments I've made in the last few bit threads are based on this type of analysis.

The third problem is that the end effect is due to the applied pressure modulated by the strength of the horse's response to it and that has two components, a sensitivity one which is simply how many nerve endings are there, what type and what are the properties of the tissue they're in. And there's a psycological component which is how the sensory information is interpreted (this is inevitably where the individual variation between horses creeps in). So even if you know the poll and mouth pressures you've still got to know the size of response you will get of a given amount of pressure. This information is very hard to come by, again its not in text books (or at least its not treated in enough detail to be useful) and the only people I know who have a good working knowledge of it are very experienced horse people.

So, my view would be, anyone who thinks they know what the total combined action of a complicated bit like this one would be, a priori, has failed to understand the complexity of the problem! For some configurations it is possible to have a pretty good guess but even then it would be prudent to keep one's fingers crossed!
This goes for the "which is the strongest bit" thread also. Its really important to realise that the best answer to that question is that "there is no answer". It doesn't mean you can't say what is a strong bit what i says is that there are different ways of being strong and you have to be more specific if you want a more specific answer.

 

[Nikiolola]

If the curb is higher up, as it is on a dutch gag, does it still have the same effect as one in the curb groove?

And how would you be able to fix the mouthpiece without using some sort of curb strap?

 

[KatB]

I like the action of the 3ring with a curb as it stabilises it and dispurses pressure. Without it, all I feel the three ring does is put alot of pressure on the poll unnecessarily, and not effectively use the contact areas effectively, as due to the loose ring, it has to travel alot before really coming in contact with the mouth if thats makes sense!? Was a discovery we made after sitting playing with one for a while to see where and how it has its effect....

 

[puddicat]

If the curb is higher up, as it is on a dutch gag, does it still have the same effect as one in the curb groove?

I dunno. Certainly It works in the same way mechanically but I have no idea what the consequence of the various force being applied in that position would be other than guessing that they might be similar.

And how would you be able to fix the mouthpiece without using some sort of curb strap?

Sorry, I meant fix the mouthpiece to the bit ring or at least restrain the amount it could slide. You could do this by adding metal 'stops' to the bit ring above and below the mouthpiece so that at the bit ring rotated the mouthpiece wouldn't slide up towards the top ring. If you did this, mechanically you'd have a pelham!