Ad lib v. Behaviour

only_me

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Was wondering this the other day (procrastinating lol), I know some horses need to be kept on a strict amount of forage and others can have ad lib without stuffing themselves. Mine for example, has always been given ad lib/huge Hay Nets/compete access to a large bale but he never stands at the bale eating constantly, he eats a bit and then leaves it. Started off because he was hard to keep weight on as a 4/5/6 year old so always was ad lib. Same for his Haynets/haybin, there is always stuff left in am but even when I fill it or put Haynet up he isn't at the hay instantly. Others on the yard would stand at their net as soon as it goes up until it's finished, so end up being on a controlled amount.

Do you think this is a learnt behavior? Ie. If they are brought up on ad lib forage do they learn to eat till full/have had enough, whereas if always on a controlled amount of hay they scoff it quickly and eat till the cows come home.


So what do you think? Is always ad lib from a young age teaching horses to only eat "when hungry" or is it a natural thing for some horses to scoff till they drop?

:)
 

JoannaC

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Whilst some horses are naturally greedy I do believe a lot is learnt behaviour because they have been restricted. I've always fed ad lib and although have typically porky arabs they don't binge eat. My gelding was starved in the past and whilst he is still greedy for hard feed even he doesn't scoff the hay.

I don't think that people always realise they are restricting their horses either, I used to be one of the last up at one livery yard in the winter and the horses would have been brought in any time after three so by the time I got their at six thirty most of them had no hay left so would be going through the night with nothing. Where we are now they have ad lib so I don't have to worry as if anything I end up taking a load out in the morning. Be interesting to hear others opinions as I've always believed restricting creates binge eating.
 

9tails

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I think if they're restricted they will gobble down their hay, same as if I'm hungry I'll throw all manner of rubbish down my throat. The number of times I've heard people say "No matter what I put in there, he'll eat it. If I put two bales in he'll finish it overnight" as they hang up two fluffed up sections in a net.
 

Doormouse

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It is difficult to say for sure. I have had horses in the past who have been starved and gone thirsty and they have always been very greedy with hard feed and one took years before he stopped binge drinking which was a nightmare but they weren't too bad with their hay.

Of my current horses, one is a homebred who spent the first 3 years of her life in a field, lots of grass, ad lib hay in the winter so never without forage, she would eat her own weight in hay and has to be a little restricted for her figure now, if I tried ad lib I would need to put a large bale in her stable every night I would think, she is very greedy and always has been. Even as a foal she was first into her mother's hard feed and by the time they were weaned her mother didn't get a look in! She is out of work at the moment and despite no hard feed except for a handful for her balancer and soaked hay she still has fat pads!

My ex racehorse who I wouldn't imagine had much ad lib in his life will only every eat what he needs and will always have hay left in the morning and my ISH eats for England but he needs it and doesn't gorge himself. The pony, who probably has been restricted in the past with forage isn't especially greedy with her hay and will leave what she doesn't want.

Those 4 clearly suggest it is not learned behaviour but they are only 3 out of millions!
 
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Damnation

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Last mare and this mare are both not that greedy tbh. I give them as much as they will eat and I have always ad libbed and never had a problem, even with a fat cob, I always keep the forage up but up the exercise and lower the hard feed if fat.
 

Auslander

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I try ad feed ad lib via large bales in their pen, but have had to stop and feed it in sections due to the weather. They are all pretty good about eating, then resting - and take the same amount of time to eat a bale, whether its free access, or dished out to them. However, if they have a paticularly delicious bale, they will stand at it and eat until it's gone though - they did a 7ft bale in 3 days over Xmas, which was irritating!
 

windand rain

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we have three ponies 2 highlands and a dartmoor.
Old highland eats what she needs then rests has been ad lib all her 20 years gets fat in summer slim in winter.
young highland is a nightmare to feed will eat a bit, wander off to play or will leave food altogether to investigate something that may be more interesting same as mum she has been ad lib all her 6 years
the dartmoor was born to a laminitic mum so was restricted from birth. went ad lib after weaning gorged himself got laminitis at three was restricted for the summers thereafter and is a complete pig would eat you if he could. head never leaves the floor
 

peaceandquiet1

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I thinks some are just plain greedy. We have one pony who would eat constantly. The others will drift back and fore and eat more slowly. She just scoffs. And it shows in her figure.
 

Lintel

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Definitely learned but unfortunately my boy if he was allowed to eat till he was full - even when younger would be too overweight for my liking! He's a Highland and has had laminitis so I like him a little lean. I would love to let him eat and let him loose it in the winter like he would naturally!
 

Pearlsasinger

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What some people fail to realise is that restriciting intake can causes problems of various kinds, behavioural and physical. How many horses do we read about on here with ulcers? Which are often a direct result of not having enough fibre in the stomach, enough of the time.

It is learned behaviour imo but it can be 'unlearned' ime. I bought a 4 yr old which had been bought back by the breeder from someone hwo had kept her short of food for a couple of years. She was incredibly proud of her food, even hay. At first, it was dangerous to go in the stable with her when she first went in to hay. Fortunately our set-up was that there was a grill immediately behind the hay manger and a walkway where we stood, where she couldn't reach us. We made sure that she never ran out of hay and over time she became much more relaxed about her feed, to the point where she would offer us some over the stable door, or when we weeent into the stable.
I have a mare now who came here massively overweight. I have got her weight down by giving her oat straw chaff to nibble when she has run out of hay.
 

windand rain

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I use Ossichaff Cool hoof it is brilliant as a feed and for a carrier for the supplements mine have. It is an oats straw chaff with a bit of hay to make it more palatable
 

Wheels

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well one of my horses I've had since 6 months old, he's now rising 7 - he always had ad lib growing up and never got fat until last winter so age 5/6 where he just ate and ate and ate so he no longer gets ad lib. I put fresh haynets up twice a day - him and two small budies are on hard standing at the moment with shelters and I give them enough hay to last up until about 2 hours before they are fed again. On the days I can get them out in the field, they have no additional hay as there is still a little grass

all doing well on this regime so far - nobody's fat, nobody's thin so that'll do me

also - nobody is starving when I get there, the odd time they will come straight over to eat but most times they are off doing something else and then come over after a few minutes
 

Cortez

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I think some horses are just greedy. I have a mare who was fed ad lib hay all her life until she got so fat it was dangerous, she is now fed weighed amounts and maintains a healthy weight. Others (well, just one) can get ad lib hay as they don't just inhale it. The greedy guys get clean straw mixed in, or are bedded on straw. One is so gluttonous he has to be bedded on shavings. The young horses tend to be better with ad lib hay, it's the middle aged/older ones that scoff and get overweight.
 

muckypony

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I used to think it was learned behavior, but my two disprove it! Both Shetlands so have to be really strict on them during spring/summer but during they winter they can have as much hay as they want and they won't ever eat it all. At my previous yard they were more restricted on their hay and used to gobble it up through a double-netted haynet, but now they have a single one and there will be plenty left in the morning.
 

4Hoofed

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Both my to have been hungry. Exracer had horrendous teeth when he came to me, and had been turned out for two months to get out of racing, but I don't think the silly ****** knew to eat the grass :eek: So he came to me skinny, sore and a bit unsure when he's next hay net was coming. Worked up to adlib hay, then eventually haylege. Never been greedy, in fact has strops, and won't touch his feed, or forage or water (but never all three?) or poos on them! :p Never fat, naturally always seems just right (even when I did try to get him lardy he did't..) a bit lighter in the winter, and nicely covered in the summer!

Big boy, was sold from a dealer to a young girl. I won't lie her photos of him at the start he's thin. She got him fat, couldn't handle it he then lived on tiny double netted hay and a handful of fast fibre. He didn't stop growing though and would eat all his bed, so she stopped giving him one. He met me, I gave him a huge straw bed and as many flaps of big hay as he wanted to eat. Eventually he stopped hovering them up, and we steadily started feeding hard feed appropriately to support growth but not encourage shoots... He doesn't gorge, but at the same time many members of our local livery community slate me for the amount he gets. A bale and a quarter a night. Sometimes he eats it all, sometimes he doesn't, but then I don't have to do another net for the morning! :D

BUT I will say this, my big boy, had a lot of serious aggression, and behaviour issues, including very extreme food aggression, he can still be a little ****** if he's hungry (i.e. in from bare field..) but not half as nasty or demon horse like since he went ad lib and learned that there would be more food again! And it sorted so many of his problems out just not being bloody hungry all the time.

I don't think it's for all horses but some of the horses I see with issues, ridden, behaviour or physical I just want to give them a big bloody pile of suitable forage! I worked on a TB stud, and the fat happy mares were given a little feed in the morning, and the field always a big bale of hay and a big bale of oat straw. It was ideal, they'd all been kept like this for years, would come in in the right order, and seemed to eat hay when they needed, and straw when they were peckish!
 

FfionWinnie

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If they are exercised then greed isn't an issue. I've bought several obese horses and they have never been obese with me and I don't restrict hay or grass.

I think trickle nets are the work of the devil and I would never use one.

If the horse cannot be kept in such a way it has enough to eat, say it can't be exercised, then you have to change how you keep it or think about its quality of life.

Incidentally I have 6 natives and they all get adlib hay all year round. The ones in hard work need bucket feeds on top of that to keep weight on. My daughter's pony is in moderate to light work and she is the slimmest she's ever been in any home (people keep telling me this, she's a well known PC pony) with us. First time in her life her diet is not restricted. Work that out.
 

MungoMadness

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My boy gets ad lib and always has some left over, yet every time I walk in with a topped up net he attacks it like he has been stood there starving all day. When they've not had turn out in this awful weather he gets through a good 35lb a day on estimate. I definitely think some are just greedy.
 

pippixox

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my 4 are in a barn a lot at the moment with ad-lib hay, due to bog/ lake field! I try to have enough that they always have a tiny bit left in the morning. when they have been in for a few days they eat even less as they just start getting a bit bored. all are a good weight. I need plenty as they share the barn so don't want tiffs over running low on food. In the summer they sometimes come in when it's hot and never finish the hay I give them as they are full on grass.

however, my friend has a little welshie type pony who is a complete gannet. she is with a mini-shetland, who is good and he wont gorge and can have the same net of hay for days. but the welshie will just never stop. she has got laminitus recently, even without grass because she was gorging so much. so my friend has had to restrict hay as she just wont self-regulate. she does soak hay so she can at least have more forage but with less calories.

I think you have to slightly restrict in some cases, but I would still rather soak or use straw and old hay, rather than hardly give them any forage at all, it just is not healthy.
 

EmmaB

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Never really thought about this before but it does make sense! My horse has always been on good grazing and kept weight well but a few years ago I moved to a yard with not so great grass, and as he got older (and developed cushings) he has been hard to keep weight on. He has always had plenty of hay but not true adlib. Same with my pony as was worried the pony would get fat and stuff his face.

This year I decided to try proper adlib, they have it constantly in the field and huge huge nets over night, and I have noticed that 1. my old boy has kept great weight with less hard feed than usual 2. pony is a good weight and not greedy at all and hasn't got fat and 3. the hay in field is being left and they just nibble it when the feel like it.

It has worked out cheaper for me as spending less on hard feed and I don't have to put as much put in the field as they aren't bothered about it.
 

Leo Walker

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Mine is a pig. He lives for food and given ad lib nice hay he'd eat until he burst! He gets older hay mixed with straw. He doesnt actually eat that much of the straw, but he does spend a while picking through it to get to the hay which slows him down, and he does eat it if hes hungry. So he has ad lib forage but has to work for it a little bit. Hes maintaining weight well like this :)
 

WandaMare

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I have one that doesn't scoff the hay when it is fed from the floor, she eats what she wants then picks at it through the night, but if you put her hay in a haynet she stands and gobbles it until its all gone even if you put more in..so this suggests that it could be learnt behaviour and that at some stage in her life which involved haynets she was kept short.
 

BSL

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I have an Arab and a mini shetland. Both fed ad lib, both often stand resting with loads of hay left.
 

criso

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Two ex racers who probably had similar management growing up and in training but completely different attitude towards food. I don't have to restrict too much as they seem to be able to put away a lot and keep their figures.

One holds weight well, is very greedy very unfussy, has to be stopped from eating all sorts of things he shouldn't. He has a smaller holed haynet to slow him a little as he is now retired. The other is picky, eats more slowly, gets distracted and forgets to eat and I have to make sure he is eating enough. Large holed haynets - he doesn't like eating from the floor and will ingore the bits that fall down. Suspicious of anything new and I swear he watches the other one trying new things to check it's not poisonous before trying it himself.

I think this example perfectly illustrates the difference between them. I sometimes take them for a walk in hand and will stop to let them have a pick of grass or hedgerow.

Frankie was soon as I slacken the leadrope has his head down and is tearing great mouthfuls of whatever is available. Tigger will put his head down, sniff a bit of grass, move a step sniff another bit, move back to the first patch and try a little nibble, move on to another bit and try a little. By this time I'm usually bored and move on.
 

Illusion100

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I read an interesting article about this not so long back which explained that due to their metabolism and method of natural feeding, being restricted from free access to forage for prolonged periods of time during the day/night causes the body to trigger 'starvation mode'. This in turn is thought to make them gorge at the next feeding to compensate, therefore (if being restricted) running out of forage even more quickly and starting a vicious cycle.

I imagine the effect on domesticated horses would be different to that of wild horses. As wild horses tend to travel foraging but would constantly (or near enough) be having a nibble of this or that along the way. So I suppose 'Starvation mode' wouldn't be activated (apart from in the Winter) and certainly not to the extent of say a stabled horse as when they run out, they know there's no more and can't nibble for hours. This may cause stress, interfere with their metabolism, hormone levels, desire to stuff themselves which surely must have ramifications.

The logic seems sound but it doesn't always fit 'real life'.

That said, I think restricting forage/feeding ad lib is just one of many factors for modern horses such as environment/quality of forage/exercise/rugging/genetics/individual temperament etc. Quite a lot to contend with really.

Once at a yard, in Winter, if the fields were at risk of being trashed and the horses were required to stay in that day, grass was scythed by hand to feed them (probably a decent sized haynet amount for each horse) in order to help the guts stay healthy and reduce the risk of laminitis. Personally I thought it was a great idea and the horses loved it.

Anyway, it's ad lib for me and never had an overweight horse. All either TB's or Sport Horses.
 

Lancelot

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Mine and my friends horses are living out this winter. We've started ordering large bales of hay which the farmer delivers to the field (far easier than barrowing bales through the mud ��). For the first 2 bales they stayed in their shelter almost permanently, stuffing their faces and going through a bale in a few days. This last bale they seem to have realised they aren't going to run out and have slowed down, emerging for hard feed and a mooch around the field but returning for hay when they feel like it.
Other horse who comes in at night has as much hay as he can eat and there is always some left in the morning. Definitely ad lib for us, they really do seem to slow down once they realise it's not running out.
 

SO1

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I don't think it is nurture but it is nature that determines appetite.

My understanding has always been that in nature horses will gorge on good grazing in order to put weight during times of plenty so that they had fat on them to tide them over during the winter when the weather was harsher and there was less grass or forage available.

Native ponies often seem to have huge appetites for their size and I wonder if this is because they are closer to nature in origin and that their ancestors did and some still do need to gorge in the summer to prepare for the winter months. Those who did not have these sort of appetite died so it became survival of the fittest so you end up with ponies with big appetites and who are good doers flourishing and breeding so you get more the same.

A lot of the hot blooded horses do not have such near ancestors living under conditions where gorging in the summer ready for the winter famine meant survival and they are more manufactured in terms of breeding as they have not run in semi feral herds.

If my pony had ad-lib hay he would be huge as he would eat more than is healthy for him and with no winter famine it would put his health at risk. He has soaked hay in his greedy net so that it will last him most of the night. Sometimes he is more hungry and other days less hungry and will leave a bit. He also has to have his grazing restricted too, as if he eats a lot of good grass he gets huge.

It is interesting as some days he is more hungry than others, he is on part livery and so by the time I get to the yard at about 7pm he has been fed and hayed. Some evenings he has eaten most of his net and others he has still has loads in {YO does a late night check at 10pm and makes sure everyone has enough hay for over night so will top him up if he has run out or not much left}

Most of the ponies and cobs on the yard have big appetites and and not very fussy when it comes to hay, whereas the finer hot blooded horses tend to be a lot fussier about hay. My pony is normally delighted to have left over hay that fussy ones don't like!
 
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Boulty

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My horse was a bit of a pig when I got him so I used to use small holed nets etc to make his forage last longer but he got highly frustrated and was attacking them with such violence that he was causing himself neck / shoulder stiffness. Physio told me to start feeding from the floor. I was convinced his food wouldn't last him long enough. After a few weeks of having ridiculously huge piles of hay he did start to regulate his intake a bit better and was eating a more normal amount.

I still find that if he has been hungry for whatever reason (eg delay in hay bale going into field) then he will fixate again for a few days but I do try my best to make sure he always has plenty (bit complicated at moment as he lives out 24/7 in a mixed herd and I don't own any of the other horses and sometimes they are a little late putting more hay in as they have full time jobs as well as the yard)
 
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