Adrian...last ditch post...diagnose my horse please...??

have you or the vet thought about a tumour? can a blood test be done for that? are his red and white blood cell counts normal?
what about sending him somewhere totally different for a month or two's grass livery, see if he improves with change of scenery, grass, companions, etc. just an idea.
pm me for more 'alternative' ideas if you like, i have a few contacts and have been desperate before...
have you done tests for poisoning, for e.g.? could it be ragwort poisoning? have you tried giving him milk thistle, liver herbs etc? is his appetite good, is there anything he particularly seeks out... i'm quite a believer in them self-medicating.
a real conundrum, i really feel for you and poor Adrian.
umm, a friend has a new diagnostic machine that does whole-horse scans, i don't really understand the science of it but it is supposed to detect any problems, pm me if you want and i'll give you her details. another friend does radionics, worth a try if you haven't already.
have you had a McTimoney Chiropractor or similar check him, just a thought, if he's really sore somewhere it might be causing him to 'shut down' to protect himself from pain... there'd be nothing to show for this in a blood test etc.
will keep brainstorming...
 
Lack of moulting would be mega imbalance of some variety but goodness knows what. Has he got access to a multivitamin block of any variety?
 
Also wondering what you're feeding him - what happens if you cut out all feed and leave him on grass / hay? Just that lethargy and dullness is experienced by some people with food allergies.
 
Have just ran your situation past OH who off the top of his head asked has he a heart problem/murmur, and agreed he looks terribly poor in his coat for the time of year. Has his liver function been checked when the bloods were done as liver problems can also cause the general malaise that he is exhibiting.

Fiona
 
I second/third the suggestion to get him tested for Lyme's disease. I knew a horse that had it and though it was some time ago and I didn't have much to do with it, it does ring some bells, coat and performance especially. I hope it's not that though :(

Best of luck getting to the bottom of it and fingers and toes crossed that it is something that can be treated xx
 
Really feel for you and Adrian and do hope you find the source of the problem. Just so you know, the yard I'm at is north of Leeds and several horses are still hanging onto their woolly coats so perhaps this is something you don't have to be too worried by. All the very best
 
To me, he *feels* as if it's systemic. I had post viral fatigue syndrome myself a while back, & I'm not saying that it's that, but it feels the same, i.e. total lack of enthusiasm for any sort of activity. He is not coughing or obviously viral. A blood test in Sept showed he was pretty well over a mild virus.

The new vet did a 'startle' test to test his sight & he has no probs responding to being called, or field gate banging etc.

The new vet said that at rest, his heart is missing beats, but that it's usual for bigger horses. On exercise, it didn't fall into a rhythm as expected & she was thinking about doing an ECG, but I got the impression that it was more to humour me.

He doesn't have a vit block. Perhaps I'll get one at the w'end. He's currently on aloe vera & milk thistle just to feel as if I'm doing something. It's been about 3 weeks & hasn't made a difference. He has been tested for anaemia both in Sept last year & at Rossdales. What would be a good block to get?

It's interesting re self-seeking...Cat had a serious accident with a barbed wire fence, nicked an artery, severed a nerve & got an infected tendon sheath. While he was recovering, he got obsessed with thistles...not the nice milk thistles...the nasty spikey ones that go through your gloves. The vet said there was no reason why he couldn't have them, so I went onto the set-aside & cut him a sack full twice a day. Then when he recovered, he suddenly wasn't interested in them any more. Strange.

There is no ragwort on the field. As soon as I see any, I root it out.
 
sorry, wasn't implying that you'd leave ragwort about, but he could maybe have poisoning from before you bought him. possibly worth doing a test, iirc Prof Knottenbelt has devised one for it.
it sounds systemic, i agree.
 
Rossdales wanted to analyse his diet, so I had to go & weigh everything. 6 weeks later & 2 chasers on, they haven't condescended to respond.

I'm worried about him being podgy, so he's currently on (twice a day) about 1/3 scoop each of pasture mix & sugar beet (less rather than more) and about 2/3 scoop alfa A, around 20 ml of aloe vera & a milk thistle capsule undone & sprinkled on. Plus a slice of hay am & pm.

I don't think liver function or heart function were done; they basically got bored with testing him for stuff.

Does anyone know how much an ECG is likely to be? Or what a diabetic or thyroid issue horse would look like?
 
I was just thinking about the possibility of heart problems when I saw Fiona's post. We have a mare who became very lethargic and slow as a result of a virus that affected both her liver and heart. Unfortunately it left her with a heart murmer. The mare had been very fit as she was eventing and about to do a 3 day. On the prep run she had, she went round but really slowly and we knew for sure there was something wrong, even though everyone was telling us that she was fine. It says a lot about her that she went round a x country when so ill and we were lucky looking back on it that she didn't collapse. She was never off her food. So trust your instincts and get his heart and liver checked if you a haven't already - I really hope you get to the bottom of it x
 
catembi said:
There is no ragwort on the field. As soon as I see any, I root it out.
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Not wanting to worry you, but it can lay dormant for years - friend's pony was put to sleep in Jan following liver problems, they'd had him nearly twelve years and were very very careful with ragwort... However, if it was liver failure I'd expect him to be itchy, although the coat problems are a bit worrying. Can the vets test for liver activity and enzymes?
 
Ragwort?? Knew a horse that showed just the same signs and had never been anywhere near any in the field. But I believe they can of eaten it years before, maybe grazed or dried in it's hay. Horribly and slowly over time it destroys the liver function and long after the ragwort has left the body.

Lets pray it's none of these things.
 
I've not noticed him scratching, & he hasn't got any raw looking areas.

Well, I've had a good cry, & tomo I will ring the new vets for the blood results. I'm not even sure what they were testing for, tbh. I have been putting off ringing as I'm losing the strength for dealing with dead ends. And I'll see how much for an ECG.
 
Please, do the ECG - I have to do it yearly for my horse who has a minor heart problem, it is not expensive at all. I have to do both ECG and ultrasound and I have never spent more than £150 (different practices), not sure how much only one would be.

I have always been told that a loss of performance similar to what you describe, first in canter then in other paces, would be 'the' sign that something cardiological has gone wrong.
 
Just to say that the mare I was talking about earlier - at one point we thought it might have been regwort poisoning as the symptoms were the same, but it was a virus and after effects of the virus. Heart and liver. I do agree with those saying heart - worth a test.
 
catembi said:
Does anyone know how much an ECG is likely to be? Or what a diabetic or thyroid issue horse would look like?
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The best person to ask about Insulin Resistance in horses is Jackie Taylor at http://www.metabolichorse.co.uk/

She also moderates the Yahoo Metabolic horse group:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/themetabolichorse/

He sounds like a Cushings/IR horse to me - but Jackie is the person to ask. She would also say that starving the horse before doing a blood test for IR is wrong... but please email her or join the group and post all his symptoms on the Yahoo group and you will get lots of answers and potential solutions.

IR horses very commonly have low grade laminitis i.e. constant foot pain which manifests itself in a reluctance to good forwards, pottery strides etc. I'm assuming he is shod but when your farrier is doing him have you ever had a look at his feet without the shoes on? Does he have a stretched white line? Or prone to white line disease? Does he have smooth hoof walls or lots of growth rings?

Please do get in touch with Jackie - I am sure she will beable to help.
 
Yes an ecg might well be a good idea - especially as you are running out of options.
Out of inerest, did you do a bute trial at any point and if so, did his behaviour change? Might be worth doing one to see if the problem is pain related or "systemic" - resulting in lack of energy/exercise intolerance.
 
Yes, did a bute trial...no change.

I think I should make a list of suggestions when I'm feeling less emotional, & work through them. I will feel better when there's a plan in front of me to follow.
 
I've known two go in a similar direction albeit much quicker than Adrian has - one stayed shiney but went downhill in 10 days, he had a huge tumor in his abdominal cavity. The only indicator was a slightly raised white blood cell count, then on the day he died, he had a huge odema under his belly.

Other was a pony that looked 'belly - ish' - you know, a puffy, gassy looking belly, with a dull coat, dull eyes and became very steady. That one had ragwort poisioning from years previously.

I'd suggest a liver function test, white blood cell count - and with Merlin the tumor was finally diagnosed by a scan of his belly.
 
Have you thought of going to a holistic vet, such as the Alternative Veterinary Medicine Centre? They might be able to cover more bases. For alternative ideas, is there a healer with a good reputation you could try in your area? Shiatsu?
 
I second Kerelli's suggestion of Ellen Collinson the iridologist. I think she lives in France now but call her and say its an emergency and she will fit you in - she is always flitting about seeing people. We had her for an old pony who suddenly went 'off' for no apparent reason - vets had no idea and helpfully suggested PTS:rolleyes: - Ellen was recommended by someone at Pony Club and we got her out. Was interesting to watch the consultation - she gave us some herbs and a her 'diet' that she recommends and a few other things to do for the pony. Within a couple of weeks she was almost back to her normal self and by the end of a couple of months she was better then ever - fit, shiny and happy and back in full work and has stayed that way.:)

The diet is very simple - basically soaked whole oats (doesn't make them fizzy) with a handful of alfalfa and the herbs as recommended. We also had to let the pony graze hedgrows and 'rough' grazing so she could pick out cow parsley, cleavers etc as she wanted. PM if you want more details.:)

Good luck and hope you find something to help.:)
 
mle22 said:
Just to say that the mare I was talking about earlier - at one point we thought it might have been regwort poisoning as the symptoms were the same, but it was a virus and after effects of the virus. Heart and liver. I do agree with those saying heart - worth a test.
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I am going through this with Dexter atm. 3 weeks ago he looked like ringworm was starting- vet commented on his coat and 2 days later we had the results from the bloods that confirmed massive liver problems. We spent a week getting on top of that issue when lymphangitis showed up. 2 days later- he was swollen up like the elephant man so vet did more bloods- this showed liver function had improved but there were a couple of markers he didnt like the look of. He checked his heart and it was beating at double the normal rate.He had an ECG and ultrasound of his heart today which were thankfully clear. So it looks like something viral has kicked off. He had a steroid injection and is on Furosemide for the swelling.

After going through 2 years with Jacob's off fore/coffin joint saga- neither myself or the vet could believe i have another horse with a mystery condition :(

((hugs)) get those extra bloods done and the ECG and hopefully something will show up.

Have you tried a bute trial? it can be very interesting..
 
I think top of the pile would be a blood sample - haematology and liver profile - but it sounds as if this has already been tried at some point. How long is the whole saga going on now and have things changed in anyway since the signs started. ie is it progressive, does he ever perk up and act like his old self. Did it happen suddenly or really slowly? I have read your posts in the past so have a general idea of the work ups he has been through but just trying to piece it all together.
I would definitely get an ECG done - esp if there was any query over his heart.

As a last resort, I would try an alternative treatment. I dont believe most if any work but if theres any chance they might give a positive result then its worth exhausting all pathways.
 
Oh blimey, poor you - sounds like you have really been through the wringer.

My first thought on reading your post was 'liver', having known two horses with badly damaged livers who showed similar lethargic symptoms. For what it's worth, I think a liver function test would be a good way to go.

I really feel for you - it is clearly so hard to work out which way to turn next, and your vets are not helping at all...
 
I am really sorry to hear Adrian is still poorly and you are nowhere near an answer!

I would imagine that liver function is one of the first tests the vets would have done, but if they did miss it out, it does sound like a really good idea. You never know with limes disease either, so it's worth eliminating that as well.

When Rusky had very similar problems they turned out to be neurological caused by the saddle and it took him two years to get properly back to normal.

Best of luck with finding out what it is!
 
Yes I tried to get Ellen...she was due to come over the w'end of the 15th & I sent her all my details but she didn't e-mail me. Perhaps she had too many other people to fit in.
 
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