Advanced dressage comp riders - opinions on light or heavy contact?

[Andiamo]

A rider at the yard (she is at PSG level, a very good strong rider), has told me my horse is too light in the hand.

She made the comment yesterday that he should be heavy into the contact and feel like he is "pulling your arms off".

I am using a hanging cheek Mullen comfort bit, which the horse is happy with (he didn't like KK Ultra with lozenge - it led to constant head-tossing).

She said "you have him in a nice outline and he is going forward, but he needs to be heavier into the contact". She said that he was "down" and round, but she said he could still be deeper. She told me to change the bit back to KK and to work on making him drop down heavier onto the contact - to have a strong contact. She said it will also help to make my transitions a lot sharper and more abrupt.

What are your thoughts? Light or heavy contact?

I don't really want constant sore shoulders from having to ride heavy-handed on a horse that leans on the bit.

 

[charlie76]

I have often wondered this. When you watch the top riders the horses always look like they are in a very strong ( not nec heavy) contact.

 

[doratheexplorer]

Hate heavy contact - horse will happily lean on me if I allow it!

My trainer has gone to quite a few local GP dressage riders to perfect her changes on their schoolmasters (she is an eventer) and she was horrified at the contact which the horse would take - she showed me and it was like being pulled to the ground!

I watched At Home with Carl Hester, and he insists on a soft elastic contact - which is what I am endlessly aiming for!!

Its too easy to haul a horse in and make them round by being heavy handed, but its the impulsion from behind which creates self-carriage, not taking up a heavy contact!!

I hope that makes sense!?!

 

[Dotilas]

What level is your horse at?

In my experience, a youngster is first given the confidence to trust the bit and work into it, and in this stage, they can become heavier on the bit as they are "reaching for it". Then through encouraging the horse to "sit", he then becomes lighter in the hand as he develops self carriage through correct and consistent training.

I am always careful when a horse is very light in the hand, that the horse isn't sitting behind the contact, and although mm from the perfect head position, they are actually evading you. Riding a horse correctly through from hand to leg will improve your transitions and improve throughness. If a horse isn't correctly through from hand and leg, you won't get a very sharp transition.

I would never say that a horse needs to pull your arms off at all, but I will get cramping deltoids when riding a young horse who is learning to carry itself.

I also would be interested to know what rings you have on your KK?

 

[kirstyhen]

I think there is a happy medium, I ride a horse which I find extremely light to the point of not existent in the contact, but I also ride one that hurts my shoulders he is so heavy.
I want the feeling that the horse is at the end of the reins, but without feeling 'heavy', taut elastic rather than floppy elastic, if that makes sense!

 

[siennamum]

I am always suprised by how heavy advanced horses look in pictures, it looks like they are really strong. When I watch someone like CH ride though he always looks like, although he has a good contact, it is very elastic and he isn't having to brace himself at all. I think there's a horrible trend of using huge blocks to give yourself more leverage against the horse. I don't think I would ever want to have that much force on the horses mouth.

 

[MillionDollar]

I think it's quite an individual thing as well and depends on the horse. I know Carl Hester loves them as light as possible, but Charlotte DuJardin loves them strong in the contact, which is why Carl doesn't compete Valegro. I think a lot are strong, e.g. Alf, but Laura is always trying to get him lighter. I would say there needs to be a happy medium, I certainly wouldn't want my arms hauled out their sockets and am always trying to get my horse lighter and in self carriage.

 

[Andiamo]

great responses, thank you everyone )

The horse is 6, but was only broken at 5, and he was hugely problematic for the first few months. Getting him onto a contact at all is a major improvement from how he was. However, he does still need to keep improving and progressing with a view to the higher levels. He's just at Novice now, but defo has talent and ability to go to PSG, so I want to make sure all the building blocks the whole way along are correct. Changing the way he takes a contact will be a difficult one to change back if I find it doesn't work for him or for me.

I aim for a taut elastic contact, with a giving hand. I'm not that keen on a heavy contact - I've ridden horses that have this type of contact - but I would prefer them to be more in self carriage, and lighter throughout their entire body.

Charlie76 - yes it does look like the top riders take a strong contact. But at what level does it become like that? My fear in taking up a strong contact will lead to him napping and running backwards.

If Carl Hester insists on a light elastic contact, then that's good enough for me!

Dotilas - I thought my transtions were ok, but she told me they were crap!
She wants them bang on the spot, sharp, abrupt, whereas I do them with the aim of keeping them smooth and correct.

 

[Andiamo]

@ Dotilas - the KK is like this - just a normal snaffle - with round rings

http://www.derbyhouse.co.uk/Brand/S...Z/Sprenger/KK+Ultra+Snaffle+16mm_314-0332.htm

 

[LEC]

I think its a tough one where they have to be solid/even into the contact because its your indication that everything is correct behind but not heavy. Interesting last weekend was when my horse worked properly into the contact he was so much more solid in the hand and you actually felt you could then do a lot more with him because he was true and through.

 

[Romax]

If a horse is light but still carrying correctly, not hollow or evading, and still letting you keep the mouth-hands-legs, I'm happy, and I'll leave it at that.

Dax is 4 and still very light in the hand, and like you worry, I know that he's the sort of boy that if I pushed for stronger contact he would evade - no question about it. But right now regardless of only having a light contact and not having been broken very long, he is correct with decent self-carriage, so he's happy and the couple of tests we've done reflect this.

If he progresses the way his older full brother has he'll become a bit heavier with increased muscle and expression, but Dom is still comparatively light to many other horses I ride.

I do ride some horses that take a very heavy contact, Rubi especially makes me want to cry if we've had a particularly long or tough session. I can't directly compare since Dax is 4 and Rubi is 16 and competes at GP but I'd say that Dax is so much of an easier ride because I can sit 'naturally' and lightly, not fighting against - for example - Rubi's extensions which can be so exuberant they pull me right forward.

Well, that turned into a bit of an essay but in short, I love baby pony with his super light contact because it makes doing my job an awful lot easier!

 

[Dotilas]

I would be feeling the same as you about transitions on a horse that has only been broken in for a year. At novice there are direct transitions in the tests but you are allowed to do them as progressive transitions. I personally wouldn't take her advice into consideration in your situation as it sounds like you are doing a good job with him. As he progresses, the transitions will improve surely and become more instant? But also I can see that she might be trying to get your horse to be more through and using itself by using transitions to improve??

The KK you have would also give a very different feeling than your myler mullen - both the hanging cheek and the mullen mean there is much less pressure on the bars and the bit is held stiller in the mouth, whereas the KK will have lots of play. If your horse is happy in the myler, don't change unless you're really sure. Only head shaking in that bit would make me wonder about (possibly blind) wolf teeth and bar sensitivity?

 

[ihatework]

Heck, I no-where near qualify as advanced but hopefully can contribute to this thread.

I think the feeling of 'contact' in a dressage horse is so variable and depends a lot on the horse in question, rider preference, trainer preference etc.

I personally hate a permenant strong contact more than I can possibly convey! I'm struggling a bit with my current rising 6yo because he is slightly dead in his mouth and fixes his neck and back against me a bit. I find it very difficult to ride at the moment as it all feels so unnatural to me.

My previous 2 horses have been fairly light in the contact. Particularly one, who would incorrectly curl up and sit behind the bit - I only solved this by taking up a strong contact which eventually became a lovely soft elastic contact (that was a revolutionary moment!!)

I've been away at various times for schoolmaster lessons.

At Talland I rode 2 very different GP horses, 1 was very light and forgiving and I loved him, the other was a bit heavier (similar in a way to my current horse) and I struggled a little but had to ride more effectively on him.

I then went to a local lady who taught on her own GP horse. I left very demoralised and hated every minute. The horse was so heavy and dead on the hand and (by her own admission was manufactured from draw reins and curb) that it was just the opposite of what I think dressage should be and I vowed never ever to let one of my own horses end up like that!!!

For me dressage is about lightness and harmony and that should be any riders ultimate aim, small deviations during training is ok, provided the end goal doesn't change.

 

[Andiamo]

@ Dotilas - thanks when I go from walk to trot - this rider wants it INSTANT, very sharp, very "off my leg". I've been asking for it in a gentler way, and I get the trot when & where want it. Same in trot to walk - instant, sharp abrupt transition. Again, I've been doing it more quietly - I still get it when & where I want it. Her view is that a stronger contact will mean I have more control and he'll be more off my leg. Also Dotilas, there is no head shaking.

@ LEC - great comment

This rider's view was that he "looks" like he's in a correct outline, and he is going forward with impulsion, he's through, but she said that he is not taking a strong contact. She's a good rider, I respect her a lot, and am happy to try new things...only would try with caution as I don't want to create contact evasion problems!

Maybe it just comes down to personal preference? It sounds like everyone does what works for them, and does what is appropriate for the horse's level of training and age.

He is not "through" or supple when I first start (he is an energetic, anxious spooky type), he needs to do a proper warmup, then he starts to become through. To be honest, I wish it was faster to get him to this point - it can take 20 minutes of transitions etc until he starts working properly. Sometimes I have to take a very strong contact depending on what mood he is in... just to control him. He has a strong temperament and can be hot and silly.

 

[Andiamo]

@ Ihatework - thanks for your comments - you summarised it perfectly:

"For me dressage is about lightness and harmony and that should be any riders ultimate aim, small deviations during training is ok, provided the end goal doesn't change. "

Last year when I got this horse, he was a complete nutter, completely green, a nervous wreck, a compulsive bolter. He wouldn't take a contact - he was either throwing his head in the air - almost bashing me in the face with it - from the excitement of doing a transition, OR, he was going around with his head by his fetlocks, waaaaay behind the vertical - looked like he'd been ridden solely in draw reins. The first step for me (and a very helpful friend) was to bring him more "up" and to establish neck muscle / topline so that he could hold his own head up in self carriage - this took months. He had an "upside-down neck" when I got him.

He's looking great now - put on loads and loads of correct muscle (he is hardly recognizeable!), he's more confident, and goes nicely in an outline.
It took so long to settle him into the contact at all....I'm worried about messing with it

 

[dressagecrazy]

I like to have a feel on the reins but i dont like a horse to be heavy in the hand. To me horses that are heavy in the hand are not supple enough through the neck or back.

My 5yo can look through & forward but can also sit behind the contact, lot's of suppling the neck then enables me to get him to propperly take the contact & give me a feel.
I wonder if this is what your friend is getting at?

I always think that Laura Bechtolsheimer contact looks very strong on Alf, however the last few times ive seen them they have been much more relaxed & harmonious.
So it does depend on the horse & how they react to situations as to how you have to ride the contact.
But as stated above i would always try to get the lightness, but true lightness comes from true self carrage & it takes a long time. Remember horses strenth comes into how they take the contact as well, it does change as they get more established.

 

[Ferdinase514]

Huh? What is she on?!

I blame people with stupid ideas like that for creating the remedial idiot of a horse that Chunky used to be.

 

[Ferdinase514]

Sorry that sounded harsher that it meant to! Taking a contact - yes. Heavy - NO!!

 

[Wilbur_Force]

I'll comment on this but I am not an advanced rider. To me, contact should be consistent, not heavy. I dont like to see lots of giving and taking with loops appearing in the reins, etc and the horse should be ridden from the hinds 'into' a contact. However, I have heard the term 'he needs to take a pull' from a dressage trainer but they are not referring to the weight of a tonne of bricks! They are basically saying that you need to connecrt the hind legs to a certain feel in the hand, the back lifts and comes up. The weight in the hand depends on the horse. Some horses are very good at looking pretty and correct but they are not really lifting the back and pushing through with the legs.

Reward for a good rein contact and length of neck is super important to me. Horses, esp youngsters need to know when they've done the right thing.

As others have said, a lot depends on the individual horse. My horse would love it if I had a heavy contact, he'd lean for England and pull my arms out of the socket! Go with what you think and more importantly, feel

 

[Holl&Ru]

I do ride some horses that take a very heavy contact, Rubi especially makes me want to cry if we've had a particularly long or tough session.

Ri I had to make an account just to laugh at this! I ride Rubi now, and thankfully he appreciates that he can't be so heavy through the contact anymore!
As a para-dressage rider I prefer a horse with a lighter contact because it makes it easier for me to balance and stay centered, as long as the horse is going nicely and properly with a light contact I don't see why they ought to be pushed heavier?

 

[orangepony]

Just to throw my two'pence worth in (but by no means an advanced, or even medium dressage rider); it is my understanding that by holding the contact so the horse 'feels heavy' in the hand, as though every step or transition is on weight scales is 'desirable'; but when working the youngsters I aim for a soft, elastic supple contact in an elongated yet rounded frame. I think what I mean is that there needs to be something to push the horse into to lift the back and engage, but I don't agree that you need to feel the horse "pull" your shoulders to ascertain it is working correctly. I like a carriage whereby i can maintain my contact with fingers and still have the same frame and softness to ride up into.

It is my goal with all my horses to have something mannerly, soft and elastic and giving the 'uphill' feeling that in my (limited) experience of dressage schoolmasters can be lost when trying to hold the heavy contact. I remember being told 'twice as much leg as hand' many years ago, and it is an adage that appears to be holding true so far!

But then we only pottle around at elementary level so I am not requesting the levels of engagement that the OP's PSG friend has greater experience of.

 

[JGC]

Andiamo, tbh, it sounds like you're doing a really good job, trust your instincts and stick with it.

I'm at Medium so not really qualified to comment, but going to anyway

I let someone that's riding PSG get on my horse and he took such a hold of her mouth she went mad and ended up ripping one of her shoes off. I still kick myself for not tearing him off her back.

My 5-year-old needs to take a bit more of a contact to really come through and my older mare sometimes tries to lean on me when I ask her to balance and come through with her hindleg, but that's because it's difficult. At some points in training you might have a stronger contact, but if I believed that that was end goal, I would give up dressage right now.

Yes, it's true that a lot of top horses seem to take a really strong contact, but a horse's training is never finished and I am sure many of their riders are trying to improve this (as people have mentioned with Laura and Alf).

I had the great good fortune to ride a GP horse that had been competed internationally and I can tell you that he was beautifully light in the mouth and he passaged from seat and back aids, not from a strong contact!

 

[Dotilas]

Also Dotilas, there is no head shaking.

Sorry, from your original post I took "head tossing" as "head shaking" - oops!

 

[imr]

@ Dotilas - thanks when I go from walk to trot - this rider wants it INSTANT, very sharp, very "off my leg". I've been asking for it in a gentler way, and I get the trot when & where want it. Same in trot to walk - instant, sharp abrupt transition. Again, I've been doing it more quietly - I still get it when & where I want it. Her view is that a stronger contact will mean I have more control and he'll be more off my leg. Also Dotilas, there is no head shaking.

Hi there

I'm just wondering if this is the "right way round" and whether what she meant was if he is sharper and going forward more you will end up with more contact? The reason I say this is that my baby having gone through a bit of a wooden jawed phase does only take a very light contact and I have wanted more and she has not liked that and I found her backing off. Forgetting a bit about outline and contact and instead being sharper off the leg has helped her way of going and actually I am now getting her to take the rein a bit more.

 

[Andiamo]

this is all really great feedback, you've all been really helpful, thank you.

When it's all going well, and my horse has warmed up and is through, he drops his head, and hindquarters, and the back comes up and is rounded, it feels fantastic, and he looks great and is in a lovely outline. This light /medium giving contact keeps me in self carriage as well - I learned to ride without reins (in Germany) which made them less reliant on them, which in turn makes me carry myself, and I do not lean on the rein to stabilise myself. I would worry also that I would lose this "rider self-carriage" if I go heavy-handed.

Lots of different viewpoints obviously - it is an interesting topic!

Even the top trainers have different ways of achieving the same thing...so it must just be down to personal preference & the what works for the horse.

I find it difficult though when I have too many people trying to tell me "the right way" of doing things.... you just can't please everyone, and it starts getting confusing for the horse!!

For example, another trainer spent weeks teaching me to gently "sponge" the reins to encourage him to take a contact when riding. This rider friend on the weekend told me to stop doing it and said it is wrong, and called it a "quick fix".

It would be really nice to have a lesson one day, and have the trainer ONLY tell me the things I am doing right!! It's only ever negative feedback in dressage!!!

 

[siennamum]

My mare likes to sit behind the contact and it feels nice to not have much in the hand but is a terrible cheat borne of years of showing in a double. To correct this I use a straight bar happy mouth for dressage, she is way heavier in it and will sit on the contact rather, but once you have a good handful of horse it does give you something to work with. Maybe your compromise could be to change the bitting with your youngster to encourage him to take a stronger contact that way.

 

[Andiamo]

@ imr - nice one. You might have hit the nail on the head

My horse isn't wooden in the jaw, but he can really resist me through his thick strong (wooden?) neck, and refuse to submit or allow himself to be flexed. He'll fight it. The first 8-10 minutes of each ride now is just gently flexing him through the neck on both reins in walk, to get him to drop down, submit to the request for flexion, until there is visible submission. His stubbornness is in his neck if that makes sense?

 

[Booboos]

It's very difficult to tell without seeing the horse, but here is what Freddy does and I wonder if this is at all similar to your chap: he has a stiff neck, is unwilling to bend through his body and can hold himself BTV, as a result of all this he has too light a contact. I have tried different bits in an effort to make him take up more of a contact in the mouth, effectively lean on the bit more. I shrudder even as I write these words (as my other horse is on the forehand and constantly needs to be reminded to stay light in the contact) but they do have a place within the right context.

No harm in trying what this trainer suggested and seeing what happens. If it works, great, if not, you can explain what went wrong and take it from there. Sometimes trainers can get it wrong and perhaps you can explain to her why her advice is not quite working for you and she can also adapt!

 

[not_with_it]

My horse has a habit of fiddling in the mouth so I used to ride with a very light contact so as not to upset her. She looked pretty but wasnt through enough and wasnt accepting the hand.

I then started to ride her with a stronger contact and made her accept the hand more, making sure she was soft in the neck at the same time. Now she is more engaged, working properly and still looks pretty.

We have days where she does become strong but the majority of the time she works into a good solid contact.
I like a contact where I can feel them on the end of the rein and where they can feel a subtle half halt. The horse needs a contact to work into but how strong the contact is depends on the horse and rider.

 

[oldvic]

The amount of weight in the rein is variable from horse to horse but it is the quality of it that is important. The horse needs to be taking the contact forward from you in an elastic way. There needs to be a connection from the hind legs, along the back to the mouth and back to your hand. If the contact is not secure enough then you haven't got that connection but you shouldn't take more in your hand than you can create with your leg - it's all about having a balance between your leg, seat and hand.
With regard to the transitions, abrupt is not correct. There is a school of thought that uses abrupt transitions to increase engagement and reactions but in my experience it tends to tighten the neck and back and disturb the connection. For me, it is better to repeat transitions looking for improved reactions, balance and connection. This way the horse steps more under it's body in a correct way so lightens the shoulders and improves self-carriage. It can be that you need to make a slightly quicker transition if the horse is ignoring the aids but that is a correction rather than the norm.