Advice and insights please

[A1fie]

Apologies for posting here - I just thought I'd get different opinions than from The Tack Room.

I have a 7 yr old warmblood. V well bred - show jumping lines. He was very difficult to break and was tried and turned away at three and then at four. Long break at four and then backed successfully at five. This was all before I got him.

My difficulty with him is that he is always behind the bit. It is more than laziness I think - it is a nappiness. He just won't go forward willingly. If you put pressure on he will rear - not bolt upright but enough to make his point.

He is worse in the school, which I knew before I got him but he is a pain out hacking as well. Sometimes he is fine but others he just spends the whole time yanking the bit. Nothing seems to make a difference - giving him a yank back, making him work on the bit or chucking the reins at him. It almost seems that he wants to start an argument.

I just can't figure him out. He is like a big dog on the ground. Comes to call. Soppy in the stable. In the saddle he is completely different. Almost ungenuine. He doesn't seem willing, if that makes sense. I am always putting more effort in than him. Yet his ears are always forward. I took him on hound exercise and he did step up a gear but was completely focussed on the hounds and almost oblivious to me on top.

I have no grand plans for this horse. I would just like to hunt him but I think it is not unreasonable to ask him to throw a few shapes in the school every so often and hack out a few times a week.

He is not highly strung and not at all spooky. He will hack out on his own on the road without batting an eyelid. But it's like he is the horse equivalent of a teenage boy. Sullen, lazy, unwilling with flashes of good behaviour!

If anyone has some insights or advice I would be very grateful. I do think it is more of a personality thing, than a tack, back or teeth thing but any suggestions will be taken on board.

 

[be positive]

I had a livery that was completely bone idle, he never showed real enthusiasm for anything but also was the easiest most straightforward horse, he was in his own way willing to learn, he was totally rideable and could do a brilliant dressage test provided the rider did not collapse with exhaustion before the end, he is now a happy hunter going at the back of the field with a smile on his and his riders face, I know he was easy to break and had no physical problems he was just born lazy.

Your horse being difficult to break, taking 3 goes to succeed does suggest an underlying physical reason, along with the tendency to rear when pressurised, he either has something like KS which can only be diagnosed by xrays or when finally broken had such a rough time he shut down in many ways but I think it is more likely there is something that caused him to be so difficult and it needs looking into before you can rule out pain being the root cause, I think it will be deeper than a general tack, teeth, back check as I guess you have that done as routine.

 

[wkiwi]

It could be something physical, as be positive suggests. Or it could be that he was never actually taught to respond properly to the aids, mixed up with what was probably some very bad experiences during the first attempts at being ridden. I.e. he might not be currently in pain, but his behaviour may result from memories of pain in the past and so he isn't going to risk more.

Regarding the rearing, from your description of 'just enough to make his point', it sounds like his rearing results in a loose bit contact (i.e. the rider gives with the reins) and that he 'wins' by not having to do what he was asked. The fact that he is always behind the bit and ignores you also suggests that he was not trained correctly to start with (perhaps the re-breaking at five was successful only in that it made him tolerate a rider, rather than it taught him to enjoy riding with a human?)

If so, then (after ruling out a current physical cause) you really need experienced help to get him through this and establish correct responses to aids in a way that makes him realise that being a willing companion is really rather fun!
NB - re the diff between on the ground and in the saddle: this is very common and due to the different way they regard humans based on their evolution with predators and the associations they make when being trained to accept a 'predator' (us) on their backs.

 

[Goldenstar]

It is most likely some thing physical and I think you need to investigate this .
However I do have a regime I use for dealing with this issue it's not in any way correct training but it's worked for me .I do this with every horse I buy regardless of age and stage unless it's a forward horse in a rush .
I think it depends on having a friend to ride with you and suitable rides where it safe enough.
I have three or four circular rides I do all the time they are our every day lets get exercised rides .
The companion horse walks along side and slightly behind the one I am on .
Once the backward horse knows them I ride on a long and loose if it it's safe rein .
I put my seat and legs into neutral and ride the horse forward using a dressage whip ( or two ) every time they drop back I tap them up with the whip I don't use my legs or seat I praise any forwardness given and stop the tapping until they drop back .
You need to have good feel and be quick to tap and quick to stop and praise .
Over time and it can take time ( six months for one ) everyone I have done this with has improved I aim to get them marching round the whole ride with out ever having to have a command for forwards .
At this point you reintroduce training to the leg .
I had a great result with one who went from curled up and back ward to a really forward fun ride you would never have known there had been a problem .
Do you think they used draw reins on your horse early on because he was being difficult to back this could give you this issue if they have damaged his natural desire to move forwards .
It would help to know what he did that made him difficult to back this would give you insights into how best to approach it .
If he reared I would get his back xrayed and his hocks investigated .
Forget the school for ridden work for a while except I would try lunging in a head collar or from the nose ring on a micklem bride over poles dotted about the school to raise his head and uncurl his neck , work over poles will focus him on his eye to hoof coordination which always helps horses with this type of issues .

 

[A1fie]

Thank you all for your replies. I am grateful for your suggestions. My understanding is that he was difficult to back because he was too babyish. He was backed by a professional rider and has always
been ridden by professional riders so I think he would have been taught correctly.

He hunted a lot before I had him and I he loved it and was
v forward going so maybe that is what I should concentrate on. I just can't understand why he would make such a 'fuss' about doing easier stuff.

He is the first warmblood I have owned and I don't feel like I understand him. I have had tb's previously and they seem very open in comparison.

I am not ignoring the fact that there might be a physical reason and I will explore all angles but it just feels like it is a mental thing.

Any more thoughts and suggestions appreciated!

 

[A1fie]

Lots of good suggestions Goldenstar, will try them. Thanks

 

[FfionWinnie]

What are you feeding him and what's his routine. How fit is he?

 

[A1fie]

Calm and condition, show improver and chaff. Out 24 hours until winter routine. Building up fitness and muscle.

 

[Goldenstar]

Hunters as in horse who turely live to hunt can be very switched off away from the hounds .
Fatty is like this .

 

[kc100]

Appreciate it may have been a 'professional' who broke him, but to try twice and fail before finally succeeding at attempt 3....doesnt sound like the 'professional' was particularly good or using the right methods for this particular horse.

I'd get the physical ruled out first before you go down the mental route, purely because you are only going to be making it worse if there is actually something physical wrong with him. I rode a very lazy, nappy horse - he turned out to have every health issue going. I know its not what you want to hear but you really need to investigate it otherwise you are only going to make your relationship worse with him as he'll associate you with pain.

Laziness in horses is a symptom of many things - as someone else said KS, cushings as well, then the horse that I rode that was lazy yet nappy had severe ulcers. So I think your best to get him scoped, and get the blood test for cushings as well; if they dont come back with anything get the vet to have a look into KS.

Have you had all the usual checks since owning him? Teeth, back, saddle, farrier? The lack of willingness to go forward could be something as simple as the saddle not fitting properly, a rider I know who trains with Gareth Hughes was really worried about her horse as he felt really flat, went for a lesson with Gareth and he spotted it straight away - got a riser pad out and the horse was completely different, the saddle was just too low down on the shoulder and causing discomfort so the riser pad lifted it and freed up his movement. So get your saddle fitter out and check the saddle is ok; if you are working on his fitness chances are he is changing shape fairly frequently, so you need to keep a close eye on the saddle as it can easily become a problem.

Again get the physio out to check his back and if there is any muscle soreness etc...there are lots of checks you need to do before you can rule out pain and decide its mental - as riders we'd all like it to be mental because that doesnt cost us a fortune in vets bills and other bills for saddle fitters etc, but in reality laziness and napping are signs of pain in most cases so you need to at least rule it out.

It could be a combination of physical pain and mental issues, it turned out the horse I rode had both problems and even when we fixed the pain issues the mental issues couldnt be overcome because of his past; so dont let your horse get to that stage, rule out pain quickly and it gives you more chance of sorting the mental issues. If pain is present and you are still trying to ride and battle away with him, you are just creating big problems for yourself in the future so bite the bullet, get your checks done and then take it from there.