[ADVICE/HELP PLEASE] Reschooling a very fast ex-showing pony??

AGray825

AGray825

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So I'm pretty much now at the end of my tether with this pony (and bless her, it's not the poor pony's fault!)

Bought the pony (17yo Welsh Section D mare, ex-showing home) last September, after I lost my horse-of-a-lifetime to colic and my youngster broke his pedal bone just before I started backing him, so I was looking for a riding horse to have fun on, which I was told by the 'friend' that owned her (read as mild acquaintance) that she was the perfect pony for that :rolleyes:

I have tried to persevere for the past 6 months, slowly changing her tack from the too-small flash cavesson bridle she came in and wilkie single-jointed bit to a plain cavesson and loose-ring French link snaffle. She'd never seen a dentist and we've since found out that she's wave-mouthed and has been coping by packing her cheeks all these years (according to dentist she's been a clever girl and made it not as bad as it could have been, but she's on a four-month visit programme, to hopefully reduce to six months after a couple of sessions) and from what I can tell, she's always been ridden in a tight, chin-to-chest 'faux contact' (I say faux because she's really quite weak on the hind-end so she's clearly not been worked properly from behind)

So now my problems, basically everytime I let her head go in trot or canter she almost loses the plot, our trot doesn't stay just a trot for long (no matter what you do with your seat she always breaks in to canter) and her canter is virtually uncontrollable (think as fast as possible in a circle and that's pretty much it)
After a very 'exciting' polework clinic (which was meant to be just walk and trot for youngsters and green horses) my instructor has suggested changing either her noseband to a grackle or her bit because I desperately need some breaks and she needs to start listening to my aids, because at the moment she just completely ignores them and either pulls my arms out of their sockets or bombs off with no breaks when I give with bit

Back, teeth and tack all checked and found the teeth problem I mentioned (though dentist says that shouldn't cause much of a problem in riding and certainly hasn't changed anything since they were seen to), the saddle needed re-flocking but in general is find for her and her back is 100% but she keeps making her muscles tight because of what she's doing

So my current advice from multiple people is grackle bridle (which I will try because I have one, so there's not much to loose) and a change of bit for more control, have seen the Waterford mentioned a couple of times, thoughts?

But should I be changing my schooling routine? We do currently 2-3 times long-lining and 3-4 times ridden either walk and trot around the yard (because we have zero hacking where we are) or in the school with a bit of canter thrown in

I know I do tense when she starts getting silly, could that be the root cause do you think? Like, if I completely relax everything and accept a couple of 'oh-****' schooling sessions, could that help?
I'm sort of at a lose really!

Congrats to anyone who can get through this essay! All the love to anyone that can help at all!:)
 
I'm taking a guess but my suspicion given her breed and history is that it will all be linked to tension, including the going faster etc, rather than her necessarily being 'just strong' if that makes sense. She appears/feels strong because she is so tense.

Which comes to how do you make a welsh zen ;)

I found doing straightness training ground work very useful for mine, slow and precise and requiring them to pay attention to me. It will also give you an insight while on the ground how much you can affect the horse even then - I'm an anxious person generally albeit not at all nervous on/around F but the tenseness from still had an affect.
I'd be tempted to make everything boring enough that you can do it on a loose rein, I am not sure with this one that pulling on her/adding more to pull on her is going to help resolve the problem though I'm not against bitting up my own mostly hacked in a dutch gag because he would push it too far otherwise (but he did all schooling in a snaffle).
 
What happens if you put her on a smallish circle when going faster than you want (before it escalates to too fast)?

Is she the same with your instructor on her?

How about riding in the heat of the day, in the school (so hopefully calm) and just doing lots of changes of direction, and circles in and serpentines in walk with few steps of trot. Back to walk if tenses. Ten metre circle if rushing.

I had a mare that was super tense with no neck and been ridden in draw reins.

I also found putting four cones out in square in school and focusing on trotting round them and not trying to stop (I couldn't stop no mouth no neck forward horse). Eventually the circle does the work for you.

Maybe you need to focus on relaxation - what is her ground work / in hand work / long reining like? Is she calm for this?

ridden showing ponies are normally calm IME. Is there more to her history?
 
My mare is half Welsh, but terribly Welsh in her attitude (the other 2 quarters are Arab and Appy). She was broken relatively late and then hacked sporadically, so schooling (and dressage for us) only really started when she was nearly 9. Her way of evasion was speed. She never bombed off with me, but the wind certainly whistled past my ears in our early days! Straightness training definitely helped as that focuses on keeping things slow, but correct. Then lots of small circles for downwards transitions, to teach her about weight aids rather than using my hands. Bringing her back to halt and just asking her to stand still after a rushing off episode. Refusing to enter into a battle with her and numerous changes of direction/flexion. Now if she is feeling in a 'hot' mood I have the confidence to actually give with my reins (all part of not engaging in a battle) rather than shortening them - it's taken a while to build confidence to do that in a busy warm up area. Find a good instructor who likes buzzy ponies, it makes a lot of difference. If you are based Hampshire/Berkshire borders I can recommend a couple.

ETA I have no hacking either, so it is possible to achieve it without. Also, although it seems counter intuitive, I actually do a lot of canter work with her as she is always much easier to keep her round in canter than trot. Also if canter work is normalised, then it becomes marginally less exciting. I still have anticipation issues in tests as once she canters on one rein, she knows she will canter on the next, but it is improving. Just doing a quick canter in each direction towards the end of the schooling session doesn't help at all for us as all it does is fire her up.
 
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flying_high said:
What happens if you put her on a smallish circle when going faster than you want (before it escalates to too fast)?

Is she the same with your instructor on her?

How about riding in the heat of the day, in the school (so hopefully calm) and just doing lots of changes of direction, and circles in and serpentines in walk with few steps of trot. Back to walk if tenses. Ten metre circle if rushing.

I had a mare that was super tense with no neck and been ridden in draw reins.

I also found putting four cones out in square in school and focusing on trotting round them and not trying to stop (I couldn't stop no mouth no neck forward horse). Eventually the circle does the work for you.

Maybe you need to focus on relaxation - what is her ground work / in hand work / long reining like? Is she calm for this?

ridden showing ponies are normally calm IME. Is there more to her history?
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The smaller the circle, the faster she goes is what I've found, to the point where I had to go back out on to a bigger circle cause it felt like we were barrel racing with no barrel!
My instructor hasn't been on her yet (that's the next thing I'm hoping to do) so we'll see what happens there

It doesn't seem to matter what time of the day it is, or how hot it is, she doesn't change at all.

We can do a whole session in a loose rein in walk doing serpentines and changes of directions and circle work and all will feel amazing, until I ask for any faster work and we loose it again. Is it worth just doing a few weeks of only walk and halt under saddle maybe?

I can keep her much calmer on the long reins, but you can see where she wants to speed up, which is why I think my own tense-ness and trying to keep her slow under saddle doesn't help things

Apparently her old owner had her from 4yo and told me she was broken in quite harshly. When she got on her to show me her ridden work, her head was pulled in instantly (no stretching to warm up or anything) and she was put on a 20m circle and asked to walk trot and canter. Whether she was ridden like that all the time or if it was just to show her off, I don't know, my instructor seems to think that her behaviour has stemmed from 'years of bad riding' as she put it she she seems to think that's how she was always ridden

Maybe I should put myself on a calmer? :D
 
nikicb said:
My mare is half Welsh, but terribly Welsh in her attitude (the other 2 quarters are Arab and Appy). She was broken relatively late and then hacked sporadically, so schooling (and dressage for us) only really started when she was nearly 9. Her way of evasion was speed. She never bombed off with me, but the wind certainly whistled past my ears in our early days! Straightness training definitely helped as that focuses on keeping things slow, but correct. Then lots of small circles for downwards transitions, to teach her about weight aids rather than using my hands. Bringing her back to halt and just asking her to stand still after a rushing off episode. Refusing to enter into a battle with her and numerous changes of direction/flexion. Now if she is feeling in a 'hot' mood I have the confidence to actually give with my reins (all part of not engaging in a battle) rather than shortening them - it's taken a while to build confidence to do that in a busy warm up area. Find a good instructor who likes buzzy ponies, it makes a lot of difference. If you are based Hampshire/Berkshire borders I can recommend a couple.
Click to expand...

Based Cambs/Lincs border unfortunately, otherwise I would 100% take you up on that offer!
I think maybe most of it does stem from my own behaviour in the saddle, if I'm being brutally honest with myself. I got used to a strong draught-type who would tank along on the XC course but would never go uncontrollably fast (bucked to evade if he ever did want to evade)
So this idea of speed to evade is quite foreign to me and the idea of dropping the reins when she does it is particularly crazy to my mind, even though I know it would probably help, it feel like I need someone on the ground to keep telling me that!
 
ester said:
I'm taking a guess but my suspicion given her breed and history is that it will all be linked to tension, including the going faster etc, rather than her necessarily being 'just strong' if that makes sense. She appears/feels strong because she is so tense.

Which comes to how do you make a welsh zen ;)

I found doing straightness training ground work very useful for mine, slow and precise and requiring them to pay attention to me. It will also give you an insight while on the ground how much you can affect the horse even then - I'm an anxious person generally albeit not at all nervous on/around F but the tenseness from still had an affect.
I'd be tempted to make everything boring enough that you can do it on a loose rein, I am not sure with this one that pulling on her/adding more to pull on her is going to help resolve the problem though I'm not against bitting up my own mostly hacked in a dutch gag because he would push it too far otherwise (but he did all schooling in a snaffle).
Click to expand...

It's odd, because I feel like I can do anything with her on the ground, but straightness training could possibly help with her stiffness on one side maybe. Then if she's happier in herself she might be happier under saddle!

I think bitting up, while maybe not necessarily essential for her, I was thinking it might give me a placebo type effect wherein I know I have a bit extra to bring her back down if she does decide to loose the plot? I have very light hands naturally and it feels like she takes advantage of that, so I'd quite like to bit able to keep light in the hands but let it have more of an effect, if that makes any sense?
 
AGray825 said:
I think bitting up, while maybe not necessarily essential for her, I was thinking it might give me a placebo type effect wherein I know I have a bit extra to bring her back down if she does decide to loose the plot? I have very light hands naturally and it feels like she takes advantage of that, so I'd quite like to bit able to keep light in the hands but let it have more of an effect, if that makes any sense?
Click to expand...

Try stronger bit, can allow hands to be much lighter and work, in some cases.
 
I think you have the complication of ensuring you ride her forwards but at your speed. A lot can also feel more secure with/expect a heavier contact and have to learn to cope without that 'hand hold'.

My own is not terribly welsh at all but still prone to all those things and it took my sister a long term to work out how to get him to chill when he had got his knickers in a knot rather than just getting more tense with him. Voice has always been very important to us too. Do you have a good woah installed? I'd almost be tempted as she can do it in walk to just ask for a few strides of trot and woah again all on a long rein so it all just becomes more relaxed and she doesn't get the chance to start running.
 
ester said:
I think you have the complication of ensuring you ride her forwards but at your speed. A lot can also feel more secure with/expect a heavier contact and have to learn to cope without that 'hand hold'.

My own is not terribly welsh at all but still prone to all those things and it took my sister a long term to work out how to get him to chill when he had got his knickers in a knot rather than just getting more tense with him. Voice has always been very important to us too. Do you have a good woah installed? I'd almost be tempted as she can do it in walk to just ask for a few strides of trot and woah again all on a long rein so it all just becomes more relaxed and she doesn't get the chance to start running.
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We have an excellent woah on the ground, I think I need to work to being able to feel her tensing up quicker and do the 'woah' before we start on that downward spiral, because after that point the woah stop working.
That could be a good idea. I'm almost thinking that doing mostly walk, with some short bursts of loose trot, and then letting her explore the yard and the tree garden area (because she enjoys that) as a reward for being good.
I'd love to take her somewhere like Thetford Forest so she can explore to her hearts content, but right now I don't want to run of the risk of loosing brakes for whatever reason somewhere that could be potentially disastrous. Maybe a couple more months of teaching her all this and that can be our reward before the autumn comes back!
 
Interestingly in the school mine backs off a waterford and does come a bit shorter in the neck, out hacking (and hunting only tried that once) he tends to bear down on it which is rather the opposite to what should happen!
 
Does she like food (assuming you're not food-reward averse yourself)?

If you're getting a good whoa on the ground and reinforce it with food that might help the ridden whoa (which you can continue to reinforce with food)
 
All good advice, but what are you feeding. I suggest no hard food at all, give an odd carrot if she must have something!
Welsh cobs are great when there is a convenient Welsh mountain to ride up, and up and up, but it is hard to give them enough work.

I read about a Welsh D that was a national driving horse, that was doing shows most weekends, rider rode during the week, drag hunted at weekends and was fed - virtually nothing apart from grass/hay, just a handful of pony nuts.
 
Orangehorse said:
All good advice, but what are you feeding. I suggest no hard food at all, give an odd carrot if she must have something!
Welsh cobs are great when there is a convenient Welsh mountain to ride up, and up and up, but it is hard to give them enough work.

I read about a Welsh D that was a national driving horse, that was doing shows most weekends, rider rode during the week, drag hunted at weekends and was fed - virtually nothing apart from grass/hay, just a handful of pony nuts.
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She's currently just on a tiny amount of Allen&Page Fast Fibre with TopSpec Zero, just as a way to give her her vits and mins (salt, apple cider vinegar and joint supplement) and she's only allowed a few pony nuts as a reward. She's turned out 24/7 barring thunderstorms on the poorer paddock (our grass grows too well, she has to be on the unrested paddock after winter)
She was on too much food which was my first mistake with her and was changed a few months ago, is that still too much do you think?

I almost want to hire the Newmarket Gallops a few times to let her go and get it out of her system if that's even possible!
 
My welshie is super good to the voice, i train all of mine to go on vocal aids because I just find it helps (and I pick cues that you can give in the dressage arena without moving your lips ;) )
So that's definitely a good one to go with, with the tense buzzy ones having an aid that doesn't mean you pull the reins or give them anything else to fight against can be a definite help. You need to give her the same cue all the time so she learns it, I make a long Hoooooahh for slowing down on one of mine and Brrrrrrrrrr at the other, it's just what they have picked up. I also have upward cues.

You do need to make sure you aren't adding to her tension, tough as that will be. so if you feel her speeding up, you need to keep yourself relaxed and calm. How do you make a welsh zen.... ? you have to be the most zen thing in the universe and hope that a bit rubs off on them :D it can be hard to really exude relaxation when you're finding the horse a bit tricky, but it's a case of fake it until you make it. if you start to get tight yourself then they will feed off that.

I wouldn't let her bobble along on a loose contact. Cos you need to teach her to trust and accept the rein, and to work with you. I WOULD give her something more complicated to do, that she can get her buzzy mind into. Others have suggested straightness training - I do my own unbranded version of teaching them to go sideways, quietly and correctly, first in walk then add trot and later canter - it's very hard to run away when you have to also be straight/bend/engaged/go sideways and sometimes you find that gives them something to focus on that isn't just bogging off and not trying.

have you any videos, OP? and what is your level of experience, flatwork wise?
 
I have a hooooooaaah too ;) trouble isif I say it to something else Im riding and have someone else on Frank he stops quite quick!
 
milliepops said:
My welshie is super good to the voice, i train all of mine to go on vocal aids because I just find it helps (and I pick cues that you can give in the dressage arena without moving your lips ;) )
So that's definitely a good one to go with, with the tense buzzy ones having an aid that doesn't mean you pull the reins or give them anything else to fight against can be a definite help. You need to give her the same cue all the time so she learns it, I make a long Hoooooahh for slowing down on one of mine and Brrrrrrrrrr at the other, it's just what they have picked up. I also have upward cues.

You do need to make sure you aren't adding to her tension, tough as that will be. so if you feel her speeding up, you need to keep yourself relaxed and calm. How do you make a welsh zen.... ? you have to be the most zen thing in the universe and hope that a bit rubs off on them :D it can be hard to really exude relaxation when you're finding the horse a bit tricky, but it's a case of fake it until you make it. if you start to get tight yourself then they will feed off that.

I wouldn't let her bobble along on a loose contact. Cos you need to teach her to trust and accept the rein, and to work with you. I WOULD give her something more complicated to do, that she can get her buzzy mind into. Others have suggested straightness training - I do my own unbranded version of teaching them to go sideways, quietly and correctly, first in walk then add trot and later canter - it's very hard to run away when you have to also be straight/bend/engaged/go sideways and sometimes you find that gives them something to focus on that isn't just bogging off and not trying.

have you any videos, OP? and what is your level of experience, flatwork wise?
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She's getting better with vocal aids, don't know if she was trained with them beforehand but it's been a slow process on the ground with them!

Yeah I know a large part of it is my problem, I have to remember to keep breathing and keep talking to her, hopefully that might come with more practice and with more lessons with my instructor.

The lateral/flexion exercise sounds like a good idea though. I've only just taught her leg yielding though as she had next to no clue what leg aids were, or she was extremely sensitive to them, but she will now go over in walk and trot (not tried canter yet... one step at a time!)
Are there any other exercises you know to keep her mind active? She loved the Le Trec clinic she went on and was extremely well behaved cause I think she had so much to think about, but she gets gee'd up when it comes to basic Polework.... should I just complicate the Polework? I don't want to overwhelm her, but am I being overly cautious?

Can't send any videos of me and her right now as I'm on mobile, but I have videos of me and my old boy on YouTube if that would help (but he was a completely different riding style so that might not be useful :/)... will be able to upload tomorrow though :)
 
:D :D :D At Frank slamming the brakes on
It's quite a good one to use because you have to breathe out quite a lot to say it, which makes it hard to stay tense yourself :)
 
Hard to say if poles will help or get her into more of a tangle, only you can tell. But I'd link lots of things together as a trial, so for example leg yield to a 10 or 15m circle to a shoulder in on the short side to a 10m loop off the track to a transition, say (!) And keep repeating the pattern asking her to do each element to the best of her ability. Basically not letting her just scrabble along on the track, keep moving her about so that it's complicated enough to get her attention but each element is simple enough for her to be able to do it well.

It gives you both something to focus on and a way for you to measure whether she's in control, straight, bendable, concentrating, supple etc. If you just ride on the track or ride circles you never really test those things. Try and do stuff at markers and make shapes truly regular rather than just random because that makes you be disciplined about the work and gives her proper direction.
 
I used a Universal bit with the lower rein knotted on my boys neck so only used when he chose to ignore my aids.

Transitions, half halts, walking over poles and lots off changed of direction also help,
 
My welsh was similar to this...ask for trot and we'd get something more like a tranter with front legs trotting and back legs desperately trying to propel her forwards at warp speed! :D

I've now got her in a kimblewick. The beauty of the kimblewick is that the curb only comes in to play when you need it.

I also agree with above that they have busy brains and you need to keep them engaged and focused.
 
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