Advice needed for Loan agreement going wrong

A

allowayhorses

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 October 2004
Messages
64
Visit site
Hi All,

I have been an avid reader on this forum and would now like a bit of advice.

I have a 16.1hh 10yr old TB on full loan since November 2011 with an inital 1 yr term. We signed a contract stating the value of the horse should the loan proceed to a sale, and kept his tack and belongings as a seperate figure. His owner approached me last week and said she would sell him to me now, I declined and said I didn't have the funds and would like to continue with the loan until I save up to which she agreed.

She has now ammended our contract to say that I must buy him in December 2012. I said I could not afford him then and asked for an additional 6 months and I would buy him in May 2013, which she agreed to. Now however because I declined buying 90% off his stuff, rugs etc she has said that he is worth more then we agreed and she would have asked for more if she knew I wouldn't buy his belongings. I made it perfectly clear that before we entered into the loan that I wanted him to be seperate sale to his belongings and now I'm not sure where I stand????

Basically I have told her I will pay what we agreed for him and buy some of his tack and rugs for an agreed price but if she wants more money she will have to take him back and sell him herself.

He had done nothing before I got him (which I know is a risk when loaning a horse) but realistically how much would you value a 10yr ex racehorse with sarcoids that have been treated with liverpool cream (with large scars remaining). he also has a very large tendon due to being fired during his racing career, although no lameness. I have taken him to local riding comps and competed and placed at SJ, dressage. It is low level stuff but he has potential to go further.

Sorry for the very long first post, but any help or advice would be appreciated.

Thanks you
 
Firstly, by amending the original agreement, it became null and void. However it looks like you agreed to a new contract so that is now in place. Is she desperate for money ATM? Because then she might take installments?

In terms of value..prob not worth a huge amount with tendon issues and bad sarcoids. I would look at Horsemart to try to give you a good idea of what he is worth. Potential isnt worth a lot in an older horse...that is simply someone's opinion and not proven.

If you want him, get a good idea of his value, back it up with relevant ads from eg Horsemart etc, and go,back to discuss this. You do need her to explain why she is changing the timescales too
 
Hmm...well I'm no expert.....but I wouldn't pay much at all for a horse with sarcoids/scars and tendon issues....even if he is currently sound...£750 at most. But that JMO.

As far as I can see she was hoping you'd buy the tack etc and that would bump up her profits.....

She is changing the terms of your contract but you've both done that to be fair.....

Decide a fair price- stick to it and if she doesn't agree then I'm afraid it money where your mouth is time and give him back for her to sell. You might find she then comes around to your way of thinking;)

She can always e-bay or car-boot what stuff you don't want to but anyway:)
 
Hi Thanks for your response.

I never signed the ammended agreement so I would assume the original still stands. She has offered me to pay in installments but i'm reluctant to do so as I don't trust her 100%.

I don't think she is desperate for money now, but she wants to get the most for him when I do buy him, but that is not what was agreed.

I will check horsemart and see similar horse valuations. I am obviously happy to pay what we agreed, but her issue is now that I don't want his tack etc that she should up the price of horse.

Thanks again.
 
allowayhorses said:
is not what was agreed.

I will check horsemart and see similar horse valuations. I am obviously happy to pay what we agreed, but her issue is now that I don't want his tack etc that she should up the price of horse.

Thanks again.
Click to expand...

Sorry- forgot to say....thats not on....the 2 are seperate issues as far as I can see. The fact you are not buying his kit does not suddenly make him more valuable.
 
I know you are probably attached to this horse... but, another view could be: how much is similar animal without the aggro?

It seems the contract may by changed anyway?

How would the owner be if you were to say to her that you woud like to carry on loan only?
Or, otherwise he needs to go back as you are not prepared to pay the increased asking price. (hard one, but something to think on)

There are many horses for not a lot of money (particularly if they have had past medical problems, even if healed now) and also loan ones too which are not subject to changing prices etc........

Good luck
 
Can I just ask if it's normal for tack & rugs to go with a horse in any case? All ours have come with at least a rug & bridle (sometimes a saddle as well) and personally, I would think it's a good idea to keep certain things with a horse if it's got used to them. Depending on the answer to this question does that have any bearing on the answer to the OP?
 
The fuzzy furry- last week his owner said she'd be happy to continue as loan and she would not sell him to anyone other then me so if I didn't want to buy him that was ok. She said she would only take him back when I no longer wanted him.

I am attached to him but think you are right and call her bluff and see what she says.
 
allowayhorses said:
The fuzzy furry- last week his owner said she'd be happy to continue as loan and she would not sell him to anyone other then me so if I didn't want to buy him that was ok. She said she would only take him back when I no longer wanted him.

I am attached to him but think you are right and call her bluff and see what she says.
Click to expand...


Dont call her bluff - not unless you have a full back up plan.
If you are ok with horse possibly going back at the drop of a hat - and I mean the "I will pick it up in an hour, make sure he's bloody ready" type of yelling and you can move on, then go ahead.
It might not come to that, but plan exactly what you feel you ought to do 1st.
 
Rosieshire- I'll give you figures. In original agreement she added up what she had paid for rugs etc and it came to £1k so that's what she wants back. I have told her what I'm willing to pay for some rugs/ boots as ultimately they are second hand. She paid £400 for saddle 2 yrs ago and still wants the same back, I actually have saddler coming out next month so was going to get a valuation, if it's still £400 I will pay that. I have bought a lot of stuff for him myself and 90% of his stuff I have never used and is in my loft.
 
You sound a really reasonable girl so I guess try and negotiate with the owner calmly. Getting litagious isn't going to get anywhere?

I suspect that she wants to get rid of the horse with a little hassle/much money as possible. So you are going to have to be brave and ask for a meeting and sit down and discuss. But you are also going to have to go into the meeting with the mindset that if it goes wrong you will loose the horse ... but your job it to make sure she doesn;t do it out of anger/spite so you have to appear to be calm and more than reasonable at all times, whatever it costs.

Really decide what you are prepared to do, how far you are prepared to go and get information to back up your argument (ie get a few copy adverts of similar horses, etc).

Good luck!
 
The way I see it, your initial contract started Nov 11 and runs out Dec 12. Owner is more than within rights to ask for you to purchase horse at end of initial contract period. You are obviously more than entitled to decline to purchase said horse also.

So if you are essentially having an extension of the contract to March 2013, then owner is perfectly within their rights to alter the terms, and purchase price of the horse is one of those terms (I don't agree with their logic regarding upping the price due to non purchase of tack, but that is their perogative).

In your shoes I would do the following.
Sit down and have a long hard think about whether this is the right horse for you. If after this consideration you decide he is then decide on what you are prepared to pay for him and under what terms. Then advise the owner of this and if they decline then offer your notice period and end the loan.

To be honest it doesn't sound like you and the owner are on the same wavelength regarding want you want from loaning, so do keep in mind this could all go horribly wrong down the line, whatever you agree upon now.
 
I am prepared for him to go, i know that sounds harsh and I do love him but I dont want her keep changing her mind every week.

I don't know what more she wants from me. I have stuck to my part of the agreement 100% but she has defaulted on hers already.

I had my last mare on loan for 6 yrs and never had any of this, it's only been 6 months with my new boy and it's been a nightmare :(
 
allowayhorses said:
Rosieshire- I'll give you figures. In original agreement she added up what she had paid for rugs etc and it came to £1k so that's what she wants back. I have told her what I'm willing to pay for some rugs/ boots as ultimately they are second hand. She paid £400 for saddle 2 yrs ago and still wants the same back, I actually have saddler coming out next month so was going to get a valuation, if it's still £400 I will pay that. I have bought a lot of stuff for him myself and 90% of his stuff I have never used and is in my loft.
Click to expand...

Gather together all the stuff in your attic that belongs to her, but that you don't use and give it back to her. Why would you buy items you don't want? She can then start selling these items on ebay or at an equine carboot sale.

If you want to buy the horse, tell her you will pay £x for the horse, and £y for the tack/rugs that you do want to keep (returning the unwanted items immediately).

If you are not in a positiion to pay the money until March 2013, draw up a new agreement ending on that date and ending with you handing over £x + £y, and her signing over ownership to you.

Good luck, i hope it turns out well for you.
 
Boxers- that's what I wanted to do but she can't take any stuff back until she moves house as she has no storage.

I have done as you suggest, told her the price for him and his stuff. The only thing I waiting on is valuation of saddle.

She believes I have treated her unfairly by not purchasing his stuff but I said from beginning that I may not want it if I bought him.
 
I think she'll have a job finding another buyer so hang in there, with horses I am looking at to buy I wouldn't be buying any tack etc that I didn't want unless it was a bargain price for the lot and they just wanted rid of it!

I am glad that in the original contract you have put horse and tack separately, it would be different if it was one price and you wanted to not have some of the tack and drop it down. She can't really argue I don't think. Obviously she bought the saddle etc and hasn't really used it herself so she feels like she should get full price for it, but I don't think that's really how it works!

You sound like you're being perfectly reasonable, and that staying with you is certainly best for the horse so I hope she bears that in mind :-)
 
Thanks for all the advice. I'm glad I'm not delusional as you have said what I've been thinking.

I have cheated a little and gone back to her via email as she cancelled our meeting tonight, and said that I agree with price of horse and some of his things and that I'm just waiting on independent valuation from saddler on his saddle before I commit to a price.

Fingers crossed :) x
 
Sounds like a lot of messing about. If you want the horse buy it now then you know it is yours and can dop what you want - if not then keep loaning it. I would charge her a storage fee for the tack!
 
Have you not thought of a buying a different horse? Because if you are struggling for funds now you need to be prepared that he is older with tendon and sarcoid issues (which can come back) and you may find that he will cost you a lot in vets bills in the future. Also you will not be able to insure for his tendon as it is a pre-existing condition and therefore if something goes wrong there it will be up to you alone to foot the bill, which can be thousands upon thousands of pounds.
You seem a sensible girl, personally if I were you I'd move on and look to purchase something else. Save your funds and for the same price you can get something younger and in good condition.
This is just what I would do, best of luck!
 
Poor you. I agree he doens't sound like he's worth very much, there are SOOOOOOOO many ex racers around at the moment even without the sarcoids/big tendon they aren't worth masses at RC level. I would call her bluff too, because it would be so much more hassle for her to take him back and then sell him (plus she'll have livery costs) than just to sell for you for the agreed price - but it sounds like you've got your head screwed on about it so if she does take him, then at least you've thought about it in advance and come to terms wiht it a bit.

Good luck, let us know how it goes! xx
 
If it were me I would be inclined to give her one month's notice to take the horse and all its tack back. In my experience once people start to mess around changing their minds and going back on previous agreements it is the start of a slippery slope.

There are plenty of horses available for loan at the moment that don't come with a cloud of uncertainty until mid 2013 attached.

Best of luck!
 
Suziq77- I am inclined to agree about people changing their minds once they start. She is a novice horse owner, he was her first horse and I just don't believe she has understanding to be realistic about him.

I think I will continue with the loan until the new year and see what happens. She has responded and said she won't take him back and that she is willing to wait for a valuation on the saddle so I'm making progress. He is a lovely boy so I'm hoping if I stick to my guns with the owner that things turn out in both mine and the horses favour :)
 
LollyDolly said:
Have you not thought of a buying a different horse? Because if you are struggling for funds now you need to be prepared that he is older with tendon and sarcoid issues (which can come back) and you may find that he will cost you a lot in vets bills in the future. Also you will not be able to insure for his tendon as it is a pre-existing condition and therefore if something goes wrong there it will be up to you alone to foot the bill, which can be thousands upon thousands of pounds.
You seem a sensible girl, personally if I were you I'd move on and look to purchase something else. Save your funds and for the same price you can get something younger and in good condition.
This is just what I would do, best of luck!
Click to expand...

I was thinking this too. I would be interested to know what value he has been put at - surely can't be much more than £1000? Perhaps £1500 (if any more do not even consider!) I would be inclined to take a loan out to buy him outright and pay the loan off with her out of your hair! I'm not a fan of loans due to the interest you pay, but it would be worth it to get her out of your hair!!
 
Honey08, we had agreed £1500 for him although I have already paid her £100 due to funding a vets bill that she was supposed to pay (a whole other story). I know with his ailments he probably isn't worth anymore but he has a lovely temp and is an absolute saint so people may pay for this. I'm not put off by sarcoids etc, I just want her to be fair and stick to agreement.

It prob would be easier to go out and spend the same amount on a diff horse. I'm stuck with what to do???
 
I'd get him bought then, but if you borrow from a friend have a proper drawn up agreement. If you get the valuation for the saddle offer her that value. I don't think she will get more for him really. If you like him and are happy with his "defects" go for it. Better the devil you know at that price than one you don't..
 
You are preparing to pay HOW MUCH for this horse? That is an ENORMOUS sum to pay for a TB, with an old tendon injury, sarcoids and apparently little or no schooling to speak of. You have been entirely reasonable, the owner seems deluded and unrealistic. Walk away.
 
To be honest I wouldn't even pay meat money for the horse, sorry. Perfectly healthy TB's going for a couple of hundred pounds at the moment, which is a sad state of affairs.

So in total, £1500 for the horse, £400 for the saddle, £1000 for rugs...

£3k can buy you a very nice horse indeed (wardrobe included and with no health issues)

Still, if you are attached to him I realise how difficult a decision it can be.

Rosieshire - very much depends. Mine came with a rusty headcollar and a broken leadrope :p :)
 
Having read the whole thread I must admit I'd be looking around at other options. It's obvious that you get on with and care about the horse but even with taking that into consideration are you sure you wouldn't find something out there you would like just as much without the health issues?

Even if you didn't buy all his things the best part of £2k will get you a very nice young horse without previous problems.

If you're really set on this one I'd call her bluff a little and refuse to negotiate any way but down.

Hope it works out for you :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top