Advice needed for Loan agreement going wrong

I'm usually the first to bounce up and down and say that you shouldn't knock a horse because it's a TB or ex-racer.

But he has sarcoids and a previous tendon injury. I'd have said he was worth £1k at a push because he's sound and doing well at local level and you like him.

For comparison, there's a very smart 5yo TB mare just been discussed in CR and she's up for £1200- no blemishes, sound and got the basic schooling in place. I think this woman has no idea how to price a horse, and on the open market I doubt he'd sell no matter how lovely he is...
 
personally i would be looking for a different horse. in the current market you can get a nice healthy horse with basic schooling for about £1500, my friend has recently got a 16.3hh 6year old TB, completely healthy, only just finished racing but is learning so so fast, and is a lovely boy, 110% bombproof out hacking, loads perfectly, good with farrier, has a lovely jump on him with so much scope etc etc, she paid £500 for him, just because she got him straight off the track from the race yard. so just explore your options :)
 
Hippona said:
Hmm...well I'm no expert.....but I wouldn't pay much at all for a horse with sarcoids/scars and tendon issues....even if he is currently sound...£750 at most.
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Absolute max, and only that if he is riding really nicely. A ten year old horse with a fat fired leg and sarcoid scars would struggle to make any bid at all at Doncaster auctions at the moment unless it was a very, very nice horse.



PS OP the leg is not fat because it was fired, it was fired because it is fat. The fatness is masses of scar tissue from a torn tendon. That scar tissue is weaker than the original tendon material and is more likely to tear again than a normal tendon. Personally I would not even buy a horse with a fat leg and I have bought quite a few ex racers in the past.
 
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I appreciate all your valuations, and you are probably all correct :( do you think it is unfair of me to continue the loan until the new year, whilst saving the money, and then go from there with regards to going through with the sale?

He is a nice riding horse, goes well in a dressage test - think we got 64% first time out. Usually jumps clear althogh can mess about if fillers are involved but only through lack of experience. His owner was too scared of him although he is a saint compared to my last tb!!!

Thanks for all the advice, really appreciate it. X
 
Vet told me I should have taken treatment price of sarcoids (under £200) off the purchase price. (One tiny sarcoid at time of purchase) Do bear in mind that sarcoids can become a real issue.

He's not worth what she seems to want unless he's your horse of a lifetime. Regardless of her financial investment, on paper, he is just not worth the price.

However, if you are madly attached, as I would be after having him for six months, pay her just to get him and get rid of her!
 
the horse is nearly worthless i'm afraid
ive seen better horses changing hands for £1 (thats one pound)
i'd be offering her £500 for the lot including tack and rugs ,she's going to find it very difficult to sell something like him on the open market

although i understand of course it is much more difficult if you like and are attached to the horse but she really needs to come home from cloud coo coo land ,he's only really worth meat money

good luck sorting something out its not a nice situation to be involved in
 
£1500 no wonder she wants you to buy now before you see sence. Honestly tbs are to a penny like the one u have. Forget the rc stuff when u took him he had done nothing and old tendon plus sercoid treatment. Sorry but £500 max any more and your stupid to pay it.
 
I know if I was reading this I'd be thinking and saying the same as you guys. Could I get a vet to value him, I wonder would he pass a vetting then? I naively didnt think the tendon would be an issue but I guess there are lots of horses out there with no problems and going for same amount. When she first offered his value she said £1000 but then upped it as people had said it was too low.

I'm fond of him but want to do what's best for me and him. She is not a bad owner and looked after him very well, but she doesn't want him back so I assume would sell him on open market should I not pay the £1500 (once again going against what she previously said about only ever selling him to me). X
 
yuo'd honestly be mad to pay a penny over £500 for him - and thats being generous!!!

Give him back and walk away - and save the money you would have spent on livery until the new year and buy something with no issues and scope!!



£2k would buy a lovely allrounder with no problems in this market!



shes probably waiting for you purely as no-one else would spend 1500quid on a horse with thatmany issues

head not heart on this one...
 
I think OP you are having an awful time in all of this: you've obviously got very fond of the horse and have put a lot of work into him, BUT somehow you need to become detached from all of this as one suspects that the owner is very aware of your affection for the horse and I'm sorry but it seems to me like she's taking the p!ss big-time by messing you about and also for asking an extortionate amount for something that's basically (1) green as hell and (2) is likely to be a walking vets bill (and uninsurable for an existing condition) probably in the not-to-distant future.

I think you need to ask yourself "what would I advise a friend to do in a similar situation?". You are obviously very involved, and your feelings for the horse are very strong, which is doing your head in: it would mine too.

I think you need to get an independent & professional assessment of how much the horse is actually worth. That's your starting point: you could then offer the owner that amount and see what she does about it. She may accept, in which case you then have to decide whether you will enter into a paying-by-installments arrangement. I would make damn sure that if you do this you go to a solicitor or bank and get something drawn up formally; at the very least have the thing signed, witnessed and dated.

It looks very much like the owner's got you on a piece of string and is pulling at your heartstrings here. I feel for you, and its a very easy situation to get into.
 
im afraid i completely agree with what everyone has said regarding him being overpriced. If he was sarcroid free then maybe he'd have more of a market but id be worried about buying a horse with previous tendon injuries. I would almost expect him to come with tack for £500.
 
allowayhorses said:
I know if I was reading this I'd be thinking and saying the same as you guys. Could I get a vet to value him, I wonder would he pass a vetting then? I naively didnt think the tendon would be an issue but I guess there are lots of horses out there with no problems and going for same amount. When she first offered his value she said £1000 but then upped it as people had said it was too low.

I'm fond of him but want to do what's best for me and him. She is not a bad owner and looked after him very well, but she doesn't want him back so I assume would sell him on open market should I not pay the £1500 (once again going against what she previously said about only ever selling him to me). X
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yes you could ask a vets advice on his value ,but it would be cheaper to have a look on some for sale sights to get an idea of what a healthy ,sound (as in no fat legs etc) ex racer of his age is going for to give you an idea

,he would not have a hope of passing a vetting ,a friend was once selling a horse with a thickened tendon (happy hacking home) and they had him vetted ,the vet failed him before he'd even taken his coat off but in your case i'd guess he'd fail a vetting on the sarcoids also

depending on the damage to his tendon he may not even be able to stand up to the work you are expecting of him and he could break down at any time as someone else said the thinkening of the tendon is damage allready done when he has broken down in the past possibly the reason he was taken off the racetrack

of course the tendon might be fine and it may stand up to the work but i personally wouldn't like to take that gamble with 1500 of my money

and then there is the problem of the sarcoids ,they could spread onto areas were tack would sit causing them to need removed which can run into hundreds of pounds and months off work ,of course that is thinking the worst and they may not spread and the tendon may not cause any problems but if i was spending that amount of money i'd rather take a gamble on an exrace horse without "skin cancer" or a leg that "might" not hold upto the work

you also have the problem if that leg "goes" while you are working him while you have him on loan ,is she going to demand you pay for him and then you will be stuck with (i know thats harsh but realistic) a horse that can no longer be ridden and is going to cost you in vet bills

i'm afraid i'd send him back asap although i have had my fingers seriously burnt and my heart broken by getting involved in someone elses horse so i don't tend to look on the bright side of these situations
i know thats easy for me to say without any attachment to the horse but buying any horse is a gamble without buying something with two very serious problems as a tendon problem and sarcoids are serious problems in my eyes although some might disagree

i really hope you can sort this out and find the right horse for you even if it is this one i'd not be parting with any more than 500 for him :o
 
I think I need to have a good think about everything you have all said and then make a decision. Thanks everyone, I'll let you know the outcome :) x
 
I thought it was £1000 for the horse plus like £500 for the tack which you were going to negotiate down, now I see it is more like £2000 I'd say she is having a laugh unfortunately.

I am horse shopping up to £2500 and have seen lots of nice horses for about 1800, and I am avoiding TBs (too fine in general)! As people have said you can get an ex racer for 500 newish or 1000 schooled and with more experience with no problems.

Poor horse, I think a lot of owners would sell to you for a token amount or nothing at all, but you've got stuck with this deluded woman :-(
 
allowayhorses said:
but she doesn't want him back so I assume would sell him on open market should I not pay the £1500 (once again going against what she previously said about only ever selling him to me). X
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In this market, with sarcoids and a fired leg, I don't think she will find a buyer.

At all.

Never mind at that price.

Alloways buy him if you really like him but not for that money, sorry :( You obviously have training skills and you could easily pick up a nice, sound but not fast enough 4 year old at the bloodstock sales for 500gns at the moment.
 
I am looking at this in 2 way's....

Well, if he's that unsaleable, you need to be worried about what will happen to him if you don't have him, unless the owner realises this and is playing emotonal mind games with you and playing your conscience.

But, at the same time, don't take on someone else's possible 'problem'.

Only you can decide. x
 
What about telling the owner that you are not prepared to buy him - EVER , and that loaning would be your only way forward.
Initially she may say that you must then return him , which you should do along with all his tack that belongs to her , i think she'll soon see the problem when he's back with her and she can't sell him , and also has the headache of tack storage for which she currently has no room.
To me you sound like a totally credible owner and you obviously love this horse , she needs to get real and realize that gifting this horse to you permenantly , releases her from buying the wrong horse in the first place and is in the best interests of the animal.

good luck .
 
If you want the horse - offer her a £1 to make the sale and tell her she needs to take his belongings that you have been storing and then go from there and see how it goes.

Or offer her, say, £500 all in for everything - tack, wardrobe and horse then you sell the stuff you don't use. She might've spent £1k on kit, but even if it has never been used and been stored in it's original packaging she is very unlikely to get what she paid.

It does sound a little as if she is calling your bluff by saying she won't take the horse away/she's happy to carry on loaning to you. If this was the case, why approach you to ask if you will buy him now?
 
I know she would never accept less money for him. As I've said she is very young and naive and before owning him only had ever ridden at a riding school so she has no sense of a horses value. I was willing to pay the £1500 next year as agreed but now I'm worried that his pre existing problems may cause me issues long term. But I am worried what would happen to him if he went back.

I dont know why she suddenly wants to confirm a sale when last week she was happy for me to loan him forever basically. I assume there may be personal issue that I don't know about :( x
 
I wouldn't try to negotiate on price - you set a price at the start that you both agreed on, and it's not uncommon to pay over the odds for a horse you know - either because you're attached, or because it's a known quantity, which is worth something! If you agreed a price to begin with, I don't think it's fair to try and change that. If you now feel the horse is not worth that sum to you, you should walk away and buy something else.

Equally, it's not fair of the owner to try and insist you buy both "lots" when they have been priced and presented separately.

I hope you find a solution :) x
 
Just out of interest, has he actually got sarcoids or scars from when previous ones were removed? If just scars, how long ago? I've had two horses with sarcoids - both were removed as 4yr olds, both had no further problems.. Its no always the end of the world.. As for the tendons, when was the problem? Has he had any problems in the time you've had him (can't remember how long that is)? Do you use the same vet - could you discuss it with them?
 
Theocat- yes I agree with you, we did settle on an original figure for horse and I will stick to that. I just got a bit worried by everyones comments about lameness etc. My original issue was the fact that she is trying to make me buy all his stuff which I do not want.

For now the loan agreement stays as it is and therefore he is still up for £1500 and tack separate. I'll have to wait and see if she changes her mind again in the near future.
 
Honey08- he had the Liverpool cream treatment in September last year and again in January this year. All 4 large sarcoids have dropped off now but there are scars where they all were. One on his chest, 1 on each hind leg an one near his sheath.

With regards to tendon I assume it was from when he raced, he came over to England in 2007 so a good 5 years ago and as far as I'm aware he hasn't gone lame. I've had him 6months and jumped him, hacked etc and no lameness. I am able to contact his previous owner who had him for a year before current owner so I may ask her if she knows anymore info on the injury. X
 
angelish said:
the horse is nearly worthless i'm afraid
ive seen better horses changing hands for £1 (thats one pound)
i'd be offering her £500 for the lot including tack and rugs ,she's going to find it very difficult to sell something like him on the open market

although i understand of course it is much more difficult if you like and are attached to the horse but she really needs to come home from cloud coo coo land ,he's only really worth meat money

good luck sorting something out its not a nice situation to be involved in
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I agree in what you are saying but with the saddle I would go up to £750 and without it £500 for the horse and all the rugs and other things.
£1500 for a horse like described without the tack is way too much.
I paid £1800 for my cob as a 6 year old just broken in from the sales and that included VAT and the vetting.
I also know of a gorgeous TB that passed a vetting and had a very, very small possible sarcoid. It was 3 year old, no blemishes, never raced and very good looking. They got it for £900 in a private sale. At auctions tbs and ex racers can go for much less.
Personally OP I think you have this owner over a barrel. If they are in need of the money, scared of the horse and know you want him then you should knock down the price.
Believe me they will never get £1,500 for him with his scars and fired tendon. Sarcoids can return no matter how expensive the treatment was beforehand and lameness issues can return too.
Bargain with them, you have nothing to lose, but they do. They will struggle to find a buyer at that price! Good luck and if they don't agree then terminate your loan and send him back. I have loaned a horse out to someone temporarily and also have one on permanent loan with me for life. On both agreements that I did myself the loan could be terminated from either party. With the temp loan one I was prepared to take my horse back with a month's notice should they have wished to have ended it. x
 
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