Advice needed: Frozen AI, what are my chances?

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Rainbowrider

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I finally have topped up my foal fund to about £1200, which I am hoping will be enough. I had to sell a horse in order to do this, which took longer than I expected, and we are now in August! (My mare had her first foal on 7/7/07, so she got in foal in August last time).

I'd really like to use Phanten (although haven't even contacted the stud yet) but he only does FROZEN semen. I am a complete novice when it comes to using AI. I really need some honest advice as to whether this is a good idea or whether to quickly get together a plan B.

My usual vet is an hour away, so I was thinking about using a closer vet who is experienced in AI. Can anyone recommend a vet or stud/AI centre to me in the Bucks/Oxon area? I live right on the border between the two counties.

Any other advice welcomed, thanks.
 
Bear in mind that international average success rates with frozen semen are approximately 34% per cycle. This doesn't mean that after 3 cycles, you are guaranteed a pregnancy, because of the effects of multiple cycle breeding, mare variability, stallion variability and variation between vets. Do you know if this semen is proven? Get some statistics from the stud. If they can't give you a per cycle pregnancy rate, or per season pregnancy rate, then probably avoid the stuff.

However, on average, 3 cycles is enough to achieve a pregnancy. So assuming you have vets that will charge you around £300 per cycle with frozen (maybe more maybe less), you'll be looking at £900, and that doesn't include keep/boarding if she's going into an AI centre/clinic (and unless you have a vet closeby who is happy to come out at all hours, she'll probably have to go in). Use of a vet experienced in frozen AI is ESSENTIAL, and if you go for any old vet, you're going to end up wasting a lot of money very quickly.

So is that £1200 meant to cover everything including the stud fee, or is the stud fee not included?
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At this stage in the year, if you're using frozen, things tend to be done in a bit of a hurry to get the mare in foal, and that's not how things should be with frozen semen. Assuming it took 3 attempts, and she was PG'd back in after each failed attempt, she might not be in foal until late September or even early October (if she's even still cycling that late), which makes for a late foal next year.

If I were you, I'd either choose a good stallion where fresh/chilled is available, and get it sorted NOW by an experienced vet/AI centre, or I'd wait until next year, and start early. It would be a shame to rush into it at this late stage, and end up with no money left and an empty mare.

Hope that helps
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Thanks so much for your help. It's not what I wanted to hear, although I know you are right. It seems so straight forward when you say it.

Even if I find a different stally for this year, next year it will end up late in the year too, so I won't be able to use Phanten again.

The reason I didn't put the mare in foal after her first foal was born was so I could wait til spring and get her in early, but unfortunatly it just didn't happen.

The £1200 can be extended if needed, but I def don't want to waste my money on a small % of chances.
 
No problem. Definitely wait until next year in that case
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Get the figures for pregnancy rates on Phanten's frozen, and start from there. If the per cycle rate is greater than 40% (but preferably 60-70%) then that's a good start!

Good luck!
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It says he has a 95% conception rate. I can't find his cycle rate, think I'd have to ask the stud.

Sambertino and Puzzle's Starstruck are also on my list. Do you think I'd have better chances with them? (Sounds shallow, but I was really looking forward to it. I have purpose built my new yard to accomodate for my mare and foal, so they can have their own "annexe" within the yard).
 
Well, just as an example of how meaningless "95% conception rate is", frozen semen that has a 30% per cycle conception rate, can have a 91% conception rate over 7 cycles. So people tend to quote the 91%, as opposed to the 30%. Alternatively, he could have a 60% per cycle conception rate, which would give you a 94% conception rate over three cycles.

NO frozen semen has a 95% per cycle conception rate, in fact, I would go as far to say that NO semen (be it fresh, chilled, frozen, whatever) has a 95% per cycle conception rate, and it's the per cycle figure which gives us meaning.

Doesn't sound shallow, it sounds sweet
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I'm afraid I can't give advice about stallions who I have not worked with directly. Cheryl is on this forum, so she may be able to give you some per cycle figures for Sambertino.

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Rainbow Rider,

Its not too late to get your mare in foal, but if you want to show the foal it will be yound compared to the others, also the mare will be late foaling every year until you take a year out.
BUT, the most important thing is the STUD TERMS. The semen will be good, all frozen semen gets evaluated intensely before freezing. Also, your mare has proven fertility so i would have no worries about using frozen semen. (would only avoid it in maiden or difficult mares). it is about £100 more expensive per cycle though.
Check with the stud how many straws you get for the stud fee, if you can carry them over to next season, and what happens if you use all the straws and the mare is not in foal- ie. will the stud fee be returned? will you get a discount on a further stud fee if you wish to keep trying to get your mare in foal? etc I would want at least 3 straws (ideally more) for frozen AI. that way you could have one cycle this year, if your mare doesnt get in foal this yr then the straws will be ready for early next season- youve nothing to loose this way?
 
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, in fact, I would go as far to say that NO semen (be it fresh, chilled, frozen, whatever) has a 95% per cycle conception rate, and it's the per cycle figure which gives us meaning.


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And nobody in their right mind would argue with you!
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Because - let's face it - even if the stallion's semen is the very BEST in the WORLD, it's still only a relatively small part of the result. Mare fertility and cleanliness, management, vet experience and attention to detail all probably have even more influence on conception rates than the stallion's semen.

I've had a hellish year so far for getting mares in foal - both with my own lad (whose semen is excellent) and with chilled semen from another stallion with very good figures whose semen has been consistently arriving at better than 75% motility, and another whose semen practically carries the container down the drive (over 80% progressive motility.)

But I've had a number of 'old' maidens, two mares who BOTH took 3 YEARS to get in foal on their first time around, and various other little problems like that. You could quote great conception rates if you dropped the problem mares from the averages!
 
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The semen will be good, all frozen semen gets evaluated intensely before freezing.

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No amount of evaluation before freezing will help. The only way of knowing if frozen semen is fertile is to get pregnancies with it. Even motility/progressive motility/HOS tests etc are not correlated with fertility of frozen semen. As a result you can get frozen semen which "looks" great post-thaw, but actually has terrible fertility, and vice versa.

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Also, your mare has proven fertility so i would have no worries about using frozen semen. (would only avoid it in maiden or difficult mares).

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Depends on her age. Over 12, or any history of delayed uterine clearance will reduce your chances, unless post-breeding treatment is fairly aggressive.

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it is about £100 more expensive per cycle though.

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And will probably require more cycles than chilled semen.

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Check with the stud how many straws you get for the stud fee... I would want at least 3 straws (ideally more) for frozen AI.

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If they offer three doses then that's great. 3 "straws" would be less good. A breeding dose will vary from 2-8 or more straws, depending on the concentration at which the semen is frozen.

As I've said previously, I don't think it would be sensible to embark down the frozen AI route at this late stage.
 
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