Advice needed - loan going wrong!

T

TayloredEq

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www.tayloredequestrian.com
Hi all, I wondered if perhaps you could offer your advice...

I have a 16.3hh IDxTB gelding. I have owned him on and off for 7 years or so now. He has been a fantastic horse for me - been placed 2nd and 4th in country elementary level dressage, showjumped to Newcomers, PN evented, county level side saddle, fun rides, hunts, trained to medium you name it he's probably done it and been successful at it.

He was my first competition horse and when I decided he wouldn't move up the levels far enough for me I sold him on, 4 months later I bought him back. The following year the same thing happened. The problem being that they fed him like a compeition horse and treated him like a happy hacker so he got a bit cheeky.

Then I put him on loan. This went great for about 6 months until she decided she couldn't afford to have him over the winter. so he came back home.

He is currently on loan to another girl whilst she is looking for her own horse to buy. He is based on my yard so I can keep an eye on her.

I charge her £100 pw. This includes him being mucked out every day, all rugs, hard feed, haylage, bedding, supplement, vets, physio, chiro, jaguar dressage saddle, jumping saddle, use of solarium, 20x60m arena, turn out and any other equipment you could possibly imagine he would need. All she pays for is the livery (as mentioned £100pw) and farrier approx £60 every 5 weeks.

She can come and ride as much or as little as she wants.

She has just contacted me to say she would like to discuss the loan agreement as she doesn't really have the time to ride.

My question is: do I give her a kick up the backside and tell her that if she wants a horse then she's got to prioritse what she does and spend more time riding to make it financially viable (and risk her taking offence and leaving). Or do I charge less. Personally I think she is getting a good deal as wherever she keeps a horse she would have to have it on at least part livery as she doesn't have time to muck out or go twice a day. After all I'm not running a charity here and she earns a hell of a lot more than I do.

Any other suggestions would be greatfully recieved.

Of course if she decides not to keep on with him then i have the problem of finding another person to loan him. After his experiences of being sold I don't think he deserves to have to move yards again and be unsettled again.

Help!!!!
 
You could get a sharer for her - so they can share the cost and the riding.

Personally I don't think a reduction in livery will help - more money wont make hr ride more - and she shouldn't be treated any less than another livery if it is a loan agreement you have.

Wait and see what she says, I presume you have a set notice period?
 
I do have a set notice period so that part is not a problem.

AmyMay the horse comes included in that plus her livery. Livery around here on the better yards (and she wouldn't want to be on a not so good one) cost from £90pw part livery, ie mucking out but no riding. So I don't understand how you can think that is steep. She hasn't had to pay out for a horse or for the equipment to start up (the saddles, bridles rugs etc that she has the use of come to approx £3000 in value) When/If she buys her own horse she will still be paying that plus all other expenses which I still cover.
 
thats the whole point of a loan, that you dont have to pay for the horse itself, otherwise its a lease.
it might help her a bit if she gets a bit more responsability for him. eg, a reduction in the livery bill (which is 4x what i used to pay diy) but giving her the responsibility for feed/hay/treatments. When my horse went on loan, she also went with all equipment. but it is totally upto her loaner what she buys for her/feeds her/etc (although it is in the agreement that she is seen by the dentist and back lady at required intervels)
its just a suggestion, good luck.
 
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£100 for quality full livery is cheap! Most years around here would want that for a basis full and that does not include the extras you give her!

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yep I agree !! but being in london our livery round here is more expensive if you had your facilities down here it would be £110 - £130 a week - schooling livery is £160 - £180 a week !!
 
She took the loan on so she could experience what it is like to have a competition horse. Wherever she keeps the horse it will be on part livery . Obviously what she pays is more than DIY as I do all the work!!

If you break it down the livery works out at:

£35 - DIY livery rate, cost of stable, use of facilities
£30 - hard feed, bedding, haylage per week

This leaves £35 to cover mucking out, turn out, rug changing 7 days a week this takes approx 1 hour a day. Which works out at £5 per day, which I believe is below the minimum wage.

As far as responsiblity goes, she doesn't have the knowledge or experience to look after her own horse. So I am trying to show her the ropes as well.

The last time I loaned him out he went with no equipment whatsoever.

As far as the treatments etc goes, she claims not to have the funds to pay for that, nor does she have the experience to feel when the horse needs to have the treatments. So as I would rather know my horse was being looked after properly I agreed to keep paying and being repsonsible for them.

I understand the reasoning behind your suggestion but my horses welfare comes first.
 
I don't really mean to be rude, but maybe she isn't the right person for you? I would find it kind of strange if I were her, essentially paying you to look after your own horse, then riding it and I assume competing? She porobably feels a bit like she isn't really very involved in the horse as you still look after/make all the decisions about him?
Think suggestion above re letting her get more involved might help her feel more attached.
£100 a week is quite a lot because although, as you say, having her own horse would cost her more than that probably, plus the initial costs, it would at the end of the day be her own horse, and having been both a loaner and an owner in the past, it is a very different thing.
 
So far all I have heard is that she doesn't have the time to ride him enough so I think she wants to negotiate to pay just for the times she rides him.

At the end of the day if this is experience for when she might have her own horse then I think I just need to give her a kick up the bum and tell her to get over it. If you have a horse and you work full time then something has to give. If she can't ride more than at the weekends then maybe she shouldn't really have a horse?

But obviously I like having the money!! and I don't want the hassle of finding someone else to loan my horse.

Also I don't want to say she can just pay to come and ride him as that would affect any insurance as they would then see it as being like a riding school.

Finally, I think she gets a good deal as it is and I don't want to be taken advantage of.
 
I don't ride him or compete him at all. It is entirely up to her to do what she likes with him. She has her own instructor and I only offer advice if she asks for it on the riding side.

I discuss with her what she is doing with the horse so that she can understand why he is being fed what he is on and supplements etc. I have also spent time explaining about the different rugs, using coolers etc when the horse is sweaty, washing him off and general horsecare.

I would love for her to be more involved - a start would be making an effort to make more time to come and ride!!!
 
Maybe she has just lost interest? In which case you might be best to cut your losses and find someone who really wants to ride, even at slightly less money perhaps? I have a sharer for one of mine, I call her a sharer rather than a loaner as I still do the day to day care and everything, but she is entitle to sole use of the horse. Tbh she doesn't come up very often these days, but I did move further away, and like you I am wondering whether I should look for a second person or a different person or just leave it as is. However I don't take much money of her (£15 a week actually! But horse lives out and is nothing like as capable as yours sounds).
Its a tough one. Perhaps just have a good long chat with her about it?
 
I was a loaner and and a sharer and now an owner and I think that paying anything to the owner for the horse on loan may be the problem
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. However I had the arrangement whereby I would pay for everything (livery, farrier, worming etc). I had the choice (after consultation) of where I kept her and if I felt that I didn't have enough time to ride her she would by exercised by the yard and I would pay the extra.

Personally I would give her a bit more rope and maybe tell her that she needs to pay for the livery and stuff but not a cost to you. It may be that she then moves yards to full livery and you don't look after the horse but I would think of that as fairer if I was the loaner. She will learn things over time and ou may be suprised because she may still want a lot of advice from you as the owner but that is the point of a loan arrangement.

When I was sharing it was far more like what you are describing except I wasn't the only one riding the horse but the costs to me were lower.

Now that I am owning I pay everything (and he is definately getting to be expensive (20 months old going off for training) but that is my choice and I still have help sources around for when there are things that I need to clarify.

Conclusion : I would talk to the loaner about what she really wants and you may have to give her a bit more rope if you want her to stay and personally I would want her to stay if she rides your horse well and treats him right.

PM me if you want to chat.
 
It feels like she is sounding you out to look at parting company with the agreement. If she is saying she does not have the time to ride for what ever reason then I would say that she is heading in the get out direction. If someones heart and time are not in, then I would be tempted to let her go and find another suitable person.

I dont think you can really control this situation, you may be able to delay it, but it will probably come up again. Quite often end of Jan/Feb we all get fed up of the horrible weather and weekend riding and regain our enthusaim spring time when we can be out and about. I would start by listening to her and offering encouragement and help if you want to keep her and find out if there are any personal problems behind this.

I think its worth keeping her onside for the time being until you find out the whole story.
 
I would love to keep her onside. I agree that we all feel it at this time of year. Diplomacy is not always my strong point and I don't want to cause her offence, equally I don't want to be taken advantage of. ie why should she get some discount for the crappy months because she isn't motivated enough.
 
If she's not got the time to ride the cost is relevant. Maybe she liked the idea of having a horse but now the reality has kicked in? He sounds lovely so I'm sure there is someone who would jump at the chance of having him on loan.
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I'd be interested if I was closer.
 
I think filly190 has said some good advice here. What you are doing sounds ideal for the horse, and what you are charging is also fair IMO when you lay it all out, but she probably equates it to riding time, which is then £50 per ride at the moment, which isn't so good in her eyes.

Do you think it would be easy to find someone else? Does she ride the horse well enough? If she wants out and you don't have anyone else lined up, it might be worth meeting her half way at least in the interim.

It's hard enough to find good riders, let alone ones that pay well I find!
 
Thanks everyone, she was meant to call me last night, but didn't.

As Llewelyn says I think she is working it out at cost per ride. At the end of the day if she pulls out of the loan yes I am inconvenienced but I haven't got to move the horse again or find a stable for him so it's just that I have to fit in riding another one.

I know this is not my responsibility but I guess what I don't want to happen is for her to think that if she buys a horse it will all be very different and she will miraculously have the time to ride, that it will cost any less (she will still need it on at least part livery) and that if she only rides a horse once or twice a week it will continue to go sweetly and in a well schooled manner.

I think I have to wait for her to call and see what she says. I think that if she wants to negotiate a decrease in the livery then I can't do that - I'd rather let her go and find someone else who would really appreciate the horse a bit more and utilize him better. She is not a great rider, but equally she is not causing the horse any harm and he looks happy enough.

The reason I don't want to meet her half way Llewelyn would be that I don't want to set a precedent. Especially as I know she is planning on going away for a week or 2 weeks holiday at some point and I wouldn't put it past her to turn around and say that as she won't be here and she won't be able to ride for that time can she have those weeks for free and start the livery again after?

Don't get my wrong, I like her and we are friendly. I will wait and see what she says when she rings and I guess go from there.

Thanks for everyones help though!!
 
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100pw????

Bloomin henry - not sure owning my own costs that......

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That's what I pay and you have a lot more facilities!! I definitely don't think you should change the price for her (if your other liveries found out, they'd be p*ssed!). I wonder what the girl will do when she has her own horse?! Will she have the same problem and if so, why is she looking for one?! I think she needs a kick up the backside tbh.
 
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