Advice needed on backing 4 yr old

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Flora

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Looking to see if anyone has any ideas on what to do with my youngster. Asked a few people I know that have backed youngsters and they cant come up with an answer!
My youngster has recently been backed and he shows no reaction to anything! First time saddle went on and girth tightened, he ate his haynet. First time sat on, never batted an eyelid and was getting led round the school.
He has been long reined and lunged and he is more or less ok with it, he only stops a few times, but my main problem is that when you are on him its like being at pony club, he wont move forward! He will walk so far then stop and you are knackered trying to get him to go again.
Obviously I dont want to start using the whip on him as I want him to learn to go forward off the leg. I have used a schooling whip but it doesnt help at all.
Anyone got any ideas please? Happy new year when it comes!
 
You need to get a professional (a proper one, recommended by people who know what such a thing is...) to ride your horse away. The way to teach a horse to go off the leg is generally to use a schooling whip: no horse is born knowing what a human's legs are saying to him. Horses are generally taught to go forward before the rider gets on.
 
heneeds toreact properly to the voice so that when you are on board you can say walk on or whatever you use and squeeze with your legs and move hips forwards at the same time so that he learns that legs will gradually replace the voice. youy could try having him on the lunge at first and the rider uses their voice while the person on the other end of the lunge just slowly raises their arm with or without a whip to encourage the horse forwards. when the horse understands walk and stop then introduce a few steps of trot so its progression at the speed the horse understands. always set up the horse to succeed so that he can be praised for doing something right even if at first it is only stepping forwards 3 or 4 steps. you will need someone who knows what they are doing to help though
 
Give him time, it doesn't happen overnight. He may not fully understand what is being asked of him. My youngest was exactly the same. A year later and you barely have to whisper a forward aid. It all started to click once he was comfortable in all 3 gaits and had started to learn baby leg yields. Keep things consistent and don't nag. Lots of clear transitions and yes you do need a whip to back up the aid, over exaggerate praise and don't ask him to stay in one gait for too long.

Hacking with a forward going horse is useful, but I would also find someone experienced to ride him on. If it's not done correctly at this stage you could end up with a backwards thinking horse.
 
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All that has gone wrong is the horse has not been taught to listen to the voice first. They can only know what we teach them and it needs to be in the right order and the handling of them from foal to four is crucial. I am guessing he was not taught to listen as an unbroken horse to the basic whoa and go instruction.
 
I always have the horse lunging with tack with stirrups down and responding reliably to voice commands for walk, trot and halt before I put a rider on.
When rider is on I lunge the horse and rider just sits there to start, when horse is ok with that we start adding leg aids in time with my voice aids, canter is taught when out hacking on a long straight incline.
A horse does not know what the aids are until someone teaches it.
If the people you know who have backed youngsters can't advise on the most basic of backing stumbling blocks then you really need to get someone on board who knows a lot more.
 
Flora said:
Looking to see if anyone has any ideas on what to do with my youngster. Asked a few people I know that have backed youngsters and they cant come up with an answer!
My youngster has recently been backed and he shows no reaction to anything! First time saddle went on and girth tightened, he ate his haynet. First time sat on, never batted an eyelid and was getting led round the school.
He has been long reined and lunged and he is more or less ok with it, he only stops a few times, but my main problem is that when you are on him its like being at pony club, he wont move forward! He will walk so far then stop and you are knackered trying to get him to go again.
Obviously I dont want to start using the whip on him as I want him to learn to go forward off the leg. I have used a schooling whip but it doesnt help at all.
Anyone got any ideas please? Happy new year when it comes!
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Sounds like a very willing and sane 4yo!

However, you really must now go a step back. "More or less ok" is not the cue to get on and ask with your leg. It needs to be consistent work on the lunge and you must be absolutely sure he understands your voice cues. It took the last one I backed a good few weeks on the lunge to get the mare obedient to all the commands. the first time ridden she was on the lunge with a rider and added the leg aids combined with voice. Then a week later she was off the lunge and ridden alone.

Please do get someone with lots of experience or else you will only confuse and resentment sets in.
 
Oh crikey...please get some help...from someone who is actually accomplished at training young horses (so from the sound of it, none of the people you've spoken to so far).

Broadly speaking, this training principle is very basic and should never really be an 'issue', so you may have to take a few steps back before moving forwards with this.
 
The horse needs either to have been taught to go forward from the voice, or he needs a skilled enough rider on board to take him just far enough off balance that he is forced to take a step to put himself back in balance. That step can be rewarded verbally and the horse understands in a few days, maybe a week, of more steps each time, that the leg aid means move.

You don't sound as if you are getting good advice, from what you are saying about not wanting to use the whip. You teach a horse to react sharply off the leg by asking once with the legs then tapping with the whip if the response is too slow. Your boy is not ready for this approach, though, it's used on horses that already go forward from the leg but are not reacting to it quickly enough.
 
ycbm said:
Your boy is not ready for this approach, though, it's used on horses that already go forward from the leg but are not reacting to it quickly enough.
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Eh, what? Training with the whip, as in tapping to elicit a "move away/forwards" response, starts from day one (with foals).
 
Training to react more sharply to the leg can't be done without using the leg.

Having taught the horse to react to a whip first wasn't what I was talking about in one paragraph. We can't write the whole blummin' book every time we answer a question like this on the forum :D
 
ycbm said:
Training to react more sharply to the leg can't be done without using the leg.

Having taught the horse to react to a whip first wasn't what I was talking about in one paragraph. We can't write the whole blummin' book every time we answer a question like this on the forum :D
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Ah, gotcha!
 
The voice commands should be taught during basic handling and when lunging before a rider gets on. Go back a few steps and make sure the horse understands before moving on. You have a very forgiving youngster that doesn't understand what you want. Please don't beat him to walk on.
 
D66 said:
The voice commands should be taught during basic handling and when lunging before a rider gets on. Go back a few steps and make sure the horse understands before moving on. You have a very forgiving youngster that doesn't understand what you want. Please don't beat him to walk on.
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Eh, what? Nobody is suggesting that the horse needs to be beaten, now are they? Forwards is the VERY FIRST lesson that a horse needs to understand; if he doesn't understand that then a flick with a whip will teach him, on the ground, on the lunge, and under saddle if he still doesn't get it. It is the trainer's job to make sure he responds, without fear or resentment. Most horses are polite and sensitive enough to very quickly pick up on the rider's signals, some are not and need a back up. If you're having to beat a horse you are not a horse trainer.
 
I find a lot of youngsters are really lazy during the 'I have no idea what to do/what I'm supposed to be doing' stage. It's pretty common and they usually become more forwards as they start to understand more about what it's all about.

I'd definitely have no issue with using a crop to teach him that leg means go, when I say go! The aim is to shock him and not hurt him.
 
The first few times whilst ridden are easiest if they are done in a familiar environment. The best way to do this is to ride whilst being lunged. You can use your leg to ask, whilst the person on the ground asks on the ground. Eventually you will find horse calmly understands leg aids because he's been taught in a familiar and unstressful situation. Then you can take off the lunge rein and get cracking. If you are doing this on your own without the lunge, then prepare for it to take a bit longer. I am not a fan of using the whip excessively on a newly backed youngster. All your preparation should be done so that you can use voice commands alongside the aid (which should be clear and possibly exaggerated depending on how reactive they are) to get them moving. It's about accepting the leg and contact, respect from rider and horse, and trust.
If the horse has been out long reining or walked out to get used to traffic etc then I would hack out with another calm horse for a while once they understand the basic aids. It's crucial that the horse finds riding a positive, interesting and enjoyable experience from the word go.
I've had to re-back and break-in numerous horses where this process has been rushed. This has been to tackle serious issues, which takes a lot longer the second time around... If you're careful and considerate with this process you will be rewarded with a genuine horse afterwards.
Best of luck. What horse have you got?
 
Does the horse understand voice aids? If so, tell the horse what you want it to do and introduce leg aids in conjunction with the voice aids. If you have a helper on the ground, get that person to lead the horse while you use voice and leg aids.Take it slowly, make sure the horse understands each step before you move onto the next one.
I am not a fan of lunging youngsters much, as they are still growing and their joints do not need the extra stress.
 
Go back a step, make sure horse responds immediately to voice commands. Lunging needs to be spot on, not just ok. Lots of youngsters will stop if they don't understand what to do next.
 
I usually have the opposite problem, my main aim when backing is to get them moving forwards and thats it as I cant stand lazy! If it were mine, I'd do lots of getting the horse to move forwards properly on the lunge / long-reining. Lots of transitions, walk straight into a forward going trot etc. with loads of praise when it does go forward nicely. Then Id do same under saddle. Is the horse hacking out? I'd try that, hack out in company with a forward going horse - doubt it'll hang back for long. Lots of praise (pats, treats etc.) when he does what you want. I wouldn't be using a whip as I would want him to be willing and enjoy being ridden not think its a chore and getting punishment.
 
Take him out hacking with another horse for a couple of months, and teach him leg aids then.
He'll soon learn to associate forward with your leg and then you can start lateral aids etc. all this can be done on a hack, even if only walking!

If he plants in the school turn him to the side, never back as that will only encourage napping. By changing direction it often makes them walk on
 
MagicMelon said:
I usually have the opposite problem, my main aim when backing is to get them moving forwards and thats it as I cant stand lazy! If it were mine, I'd do lots of getting the horse to move forwards properly on the lunge / long-reining. Lots of transitions, walk straight into a forward going trot etc. with loads of praise when it does go forward nicely. Then Id do same under saddle. Is the horse hacking out? I'd try that, hack out in company with a forward going horse - doubt it'll hang back for long. Lots of praise (pats, treats etc.) when he does what you want. I wouldn't be using a whip as I would want him to be willing and enjoy being ridden not think its a chore and getting punishment.
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Using a whip does not equate to punishment; used properly, as it should be, it is just an aid like any other.
 
The way the OP described using the whip, along with OP saying the horse doesn't understand the whip suggests using it in a 'punishment' type context, which I think is what people are responding to.

The OP sounds to have a horse that has been trained to take tack and happily have a human sit on, but beyond that is largely untrained. I don't see whips as a tool for punishment but I think that it would be extremely unwise to suggest that the OP start trying to train a forwards response with a whip cue while sat on an untrained wobbly youngster.
 
DabDab said:
The way the OP described using the whip, along with OP saying the horse doesn't understand the whip suggests using it in a 'punishment' type context, which I think is what people are responding to.

The OP sounds to have a horse that has been trained to take tack and happily have a human sit on, but beyond that is largely untrained. I don't see whips as a tool for punishment but I think that it would be extremely unwise to suggest that the OP start trying to train a forwards response with a whip cue while sat on an untrained wobbly youngster.
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Nope, she should not be sitting on it to start with. That training takes place in hand at first, then on the lunge and only after the horse fully understands and responds does it make sense to ask from up top.
 
The whip is an 'artificial aid' and the horse should have been conditioned to it during the breaking/backing process such that it is familiar and comfortable with its role in life.
 
Cortez said:
Nope, she should not be sitting on it to start with. That training takes place in hand at first, then on the lunge and only after the horse fully understands and responds does it make sense to ask from up top.
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Agreed
 
Having now read the entire thread, I would say that it is not uncommon with laid back/accepting horses for people to hurry or miss out entire steps in the breaking process. The skill is in understanding when the horse understands as opposed to merely tolerates.
 
with a hot horse i need to calm it, with a laid back type i need to thoroughly instill the understanding of moving forward when asked, before backing, or it may not go forward to the leg as needed straight away.

adjust the training to the nature of the individual horse and its needs and tendencies.

if you need to use a whip in the initial riding away after backing, its insufficient pre training, and i for one would have heart failure at the mere thought of using a whip on a newly backed horse!
 
tristar said:
if you need to use a whip in the initial riding away after backing, its insufficient pre training, and i for one would have heart failure at the mere thought of using a whip on a newly backed horse!
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Why? I always get them used to the touch of the whip right away; nothing worse than a whip-shy horse that you have to tiptoe around (so to speak) and "can't" use/carry a whip on in case it freaks out.....
 
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