Advice needed on severe lead reactivity

[Holzdweaver]

I took on a family members dog temporarily about six weeks ago due to her being seriously ill, going into hospital and being in there for a month, She has since come out of hospital but cant take her back due to continued ill health and has asked me to rehome her or place her in a rescue centre. Now as she stands theres no way she is rehomeable, i can take her on myself at a push with a few sacrifices which i will do, i just dont know where to go from here.

Iv known this dog since a pup but havent been an active part in her life, my brother who i live with owns her full sister.
The dog is two years old, she is a doberman x rottweiler and wasnt well socialised as a pup with other dogs or people and to my knowledge has only been on a handful of walks as she was usually just taken into the garden.

What i didnt realise when i took her on was that she is extremely lead aggressive, i was told that she can be a bit funny on the lead sometimes (what an understatment!).
Now i havent got a large garden, we have a yard which isnt good for nothing and so she is going on three walks a day, but nothing seems to be improving.

Every time a car goes past, she lunges at it. Everytime a person goes past, she lunges, barking and snarling. Everytime she sees a dog she twists, barks and leaps in the air like some sort of gazelle. Same with cats, or bikes, or joggers or trains and she even once did it to a plane...

Iv been doing a lot of training in the house and on walks, she now sits when i ask, and iv taught her to 'look at me' which she will now hold for a good six to eight seconds, she does this pretty much everytime in the house even with distractions.
Iv also taught her to heel on the lead, which she does brilliantly, until she sees anything that sets her off. I have asked her to sit side on to the 'threat' and to 'look at me' while out but she just wont if she is focusing on something else. I always make sure the lead is loose when walking and if i ask her to sit when somebody is passing its loose but she just then lunges from the sit. It feels like a fight with her everytime we go out as im trying to keep her from reacting to everything. One min she is walking lovely at my side, ears down, tail down and then a car goes past and her head comes up, tail comes up and at this point she will sit when asked but wont break eye contact with what shes focusing on, not even for a treat, it doesnt even need to be close either, things in the distance also set her off, but the closer it is the more severe the reaction.

Iv tried a few different approaches in the last six weeks, iv tried turning back away from whatever is getting her attention and as she is at heel she has to follow and listen to me, walk a few steps, maybe ask her to sit and look at me, praise if she was calm then turn back round and she would look when going past but not react. This worked for a about a week and i thought i had cracked it, but she then started twisting round to continue forward anyway, and trying to drag me forwards, sometimes nearly taking my legs from under me.

Shes walked with a halti, as its the only thing which i can hold her back with when she lunges. she is also muzzled so no chance of her actually biting someone if she ever got loose.

In the house she is a sweetie, she follows you round like a puppy, listens to what you ask of her, cuddles up to you, she puts her head on your knee and gazes adoringly at you. She gets on well with the other dog in the house too. Her only fault is on walks.

I would love to afford a dog trainer to work with me and her one on one, but finances just wont allow it.

Can anyone give me any advice on where to go from here? Iv just got to the point of not knowing what to try as nothing seems to keep her focus once she locks onto something.

 

[SadKen]

I started typing a response but then realized I'm kinda out of my depth on this one. Rather than give bad advice, (especially as this is a big and potentially dangerous dog) I will simply say this sounds like a very complex problem that probably doesn't have anything to do with cars and bikes per se and everything to do with a mind that's been affected by lack of stimulation in the past. I'd imagine it's going to be tricky to crack, but well done to you for taking on a difficult dog. I'm sure the real experts (cc, dobiegirl et al) will be along soon with some more practical comments.

 

[Dobiegirl]

As Sadken said this will be down to lack of socialisation,training etc, as your brother has her full sister I presume she is ok so not genetic, some eastern European Dobes are exceptionally sharp and reactive.

The problem isnt unfixable and get it right and you could have a fantastic dog on your hands, so far you have done all the right things, getting her to watch you and walking to heel. The problem for me is is this dog fear reactive or just plain dog aggressive and anything that moves aggressive, both require different handling.

One of my rescue Dobes was just over 18months when I took him on, he had bitten the previous owner and I wasnt told he was dog aggressive, I already had an entire male Dobe who was a gentleman but who was no walkover, careful introductions and they were fine together and they never had a cross word. Wlaking him on a lead I soon discovered he was dog aggressive,frothing at the mouth and determined to get to the other dog and kill it, this was beyond me so I after lots of false starts with other trainers found an ex police dog handler who owned Dbes and he told me I had to step up. I had to spend quite a bit of time getting him to watch me, I also had to train him to leave it (this could be anything on the floor or him looking at something in the distance, he had to be focussed on me at all times. This obviously took a lot of time practising at home then we practised in class, he was not allowed to look at anything, the idea being the minute he looked and focussed I had lost control. I had him on a choke chain and if he looked at another dog I had to check him say leave it and keep walking, this type of dog would not have responded to a clicker or a piece of chicken as in all probability he would have had your arm off as he would be taking the chicken and looking where he wasnt meant to look. Eventually he was walking past other dogs with no reaction from him at all, I dont want you to think I was being cruel to him and getting blind obedience because this wasnt like this at all, it was to keep him focussed on me. A lot of practice at home was required and this dog became my dog of a lifetime who I lost sadly age 4yrs of age to Lepto. Checking a dog on a choke chain is not strangling it but its just a reminder to the dog to keep his mind on the job. If this dog had been fear reactive I would have handled it in a different way, my current rescue was fear reactive and again I turned her around with a different method, but your dog sounds more like my other dog.

Hope this helps, its not easy and you have to be honest with yourself, are you capable of dealing with this or out of your depth which if this is the case you have to find a way to afford a trainer. Your dog atm is a weapon and will not be a pleasure to own until this is put right. Please dont take offence at that, I was out of my depth with Fred and I knew I needed help as I had never seen such an aggressive dog before, he was also Eastern European bred as well and fat as a house when I first got him.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Stop making her sit. Keep moving, keep active, keep her busy. All you're doing now is creating a Mexican stand-off. And probably unwittingly fuelling it.
We don't let a spooky horse stare at the scary monster tree, we kick him on.

Investigate training her to jog at heel or run alongside a bike or pull a rig. Dogs that are too busy thinking about keeping up or when to turn right or left or stop, are usually too busy to gob off at everything else passing them by.
I've known a couple of chasers cured by engaging them in the activity of the people they uses to chase!

If it's fear then every day it is reinforced. She gobs off and the scary thing retreats. As cars and bikes are prone to do.
If you believe that it is real stress and the world is just too big and scary for her and that is clouding her thinking and understanding what you are asking of her, cut your losses and find a field to run her in.
Had one like that, and life was not fun for either of us.

If you think she is just being an idiot, and I have had those too, I would and have done what Dobiegirl has done.
Correction when even thinking about it, big reward when focused on me. So looking at other things is unpleasant and listening to mummy is amazing.

I cured my last dog of chasing bikes by accident. He was on a lunge line and one went past from behind in the forest and I thought 'he will run to the end of the line and get a boink and that will teach him'.
I didn't realise the line was wrapped around my leg. He reached the end of the line and he and I got quite the boink, I got pulled horizontal and crashed to the ground flat on my back. But he never chased a bike again.

 

[Alec Swan]

I took on a family members dog temporarily about six weeks ago due to her being seriously ill, going into hospital and being in there for a month, She has since come out of hospital but cant take her back due to continued ill health and has asked me to rehome her or place her in a rescue centre. Now as she stands theres no way she is rehomeable, i can take her on myself at a push with a few sacrifices which i will do, i just dont know where to go from here.

……...

What i didnt realise when i took her on was that she is extremely lead aggressive, i was told that she can be a bit funny on the lead sometimes (what an understatment!).
……..

……..

Iv been doing a lot of training in the house and on walks, she now sits when i ask, and iv taught her to 'look at me' which she will now hold for a good six to eight seconds, she does this pretty much everytime in the house even with distractions.

Iv also taught her to heel on the lead, which she does brilliantly, until she sees anything that sets her off. I have asked her to sit side on to the 'threat' and to 'look at me' while out but she just wont if she is focusing on something else. I always make sure the lead is loose when walking and if i ask her to sit when somebody is passing its loose but she just then lunges from the sit. It feels like a fight with her everytime we go out as im trying to keep her from reacting to everything. One min she is walking lovely at my side, ears down, tail down and then a car goes past and her head comes up, tail comes up and at this point she will sit when asked but wont break eye contact with what shes focusing on, not even for a treat, it doesnt even need to be close either, things in the distance also set her off, but the closer it is the more severe the reaction.

Iv tried a few different approaches in the last six weeks, iv tried turning back away from whatever is getting her attention and as she is at heel she has to follow and listen to me, walk a few steps, maybe ask her to sit and look at me, praise if she was calm then turn back round and she would look when going past but not react. This worked for a about a week and i thought i had cracked it, but she then started twisting round to continue forward anyway, and trying to drag me forwards, sometimes nearly taking my legs from under me.

Shes walked with a halti, as its the only thing which i can hold her back with when she lunges. she is also muzzled so no chance of her actually biting someone if she ever got loose.

In the house she is a sweetie, she follows you round like a puppy, listens to what you ask of her, cuddles up to you, she puts her head on your knee and gazes adoringly at you. She gets on well with the other dog in the house too. Her only fault is on walks.

I would love to afford a dog trainer to work with me and her one on one, but finances just wont allow it.

Can anyone give me any advice on where to go from here? Iv just got to the point of not knowing what to try as nothing seems to keep her focus once she locks onto something.

Para 1. Well done you!

Para 2. Who is it that you believe that she's protecting? Is it you, or she?

Para 3. "Look at me", is VITAL! Again, well done.

Para 4. This is where it's starting to get tricky. …….. 'not even for a treat', and this is where she's breaking away from your wishes. Treats will be fine, whilst it SUITS HER to listen to you. When her focused and over-powering will takes over, neither a treat nor yet a stick will change that, in fact any form of violence will only worsen her mood. Her level of respect for your wishes needs to go up a notch! 'Working at' improvement has to be on your terms, not hers. I suspect that currently, she's actually pleasing herself.

Para 5. When you achieve what you want, and then offer 'praise', you're undoing everything which you've just achieved. Issuing an instruction, with such a dog and THEN being grateful and expressing that in the form of praise, is simply sending her mixed messages. I honestly believe that with your open mind, the fact that you're prepared to change your approach, is excellent, but nothing that you do will change a thing if you rub out your progress with reward. You need to impose your will upon the dog.

Para 6. A Halti prevents a dog from achieving its ambition. A Halti doesn't persuade the dog to listen to you.

Para 7. The domestic arrangements are working, so now that needs to role out to the outside environment.

Right, what to do?!! 30+ years ago, dogs such as yours were my bred and butter, and how I enjoyed the battle of wills! It's unlikely that she will ever completely change, but with your obvious and enquiring mind, things can certainly improve. Without actually seeing the dog, it's near impossible to offer any sort of clear suggestions, BUT!…….. Whilst I'm not aware of the environment in which you live, I would make the effort to 'Swamp' her with those things which she either fears, or perceives as a threat. Initially, I'd only take her out in public, muzzled. When a perceived threat approaches, I would be certain that I stand in front of her, and importantly, I'd be facing her. Under no circumstances would I be behind her shoulder, which would effectively put her in front of me. If it makes sense, she needs to get past you, before she can engage what's approaching.

You've already grasped the principles of a loose lead, but when the bloody thing launches itself, maintaing a slack lead is impossible, I understand that. If you're able to have the dog lying down, FACING YOU, with a firm grasp on the lead, and you have others walk past, but behind you, and whilst you maintain eye contact, then engineering the situation so that she has to go past you, and as soon as she makes a move, she's corrected, harshly if needs be, then she will learn that it's your wishes which come before hers!

Generally, I'd suggest that the dog needs to be put down before someone is badly injured, but firstly, she's only 2 years old, and secondly, you already have a serious grasp on what's needed. I think that with a focused approach, which in the main probably only needs a tweak here and there, that you will make progress. The problem will be when she returns to her former home, assuming that she does, and there would be every likelihood that she will simply revert back.

I'm not sure whether I've been of much help, it's so difficult by posting, but I do wish you well, and will you post again and let us know of your progress, positive or not?

Alec.

 

[Holzdweaver]

Thank you so much for your wonderful responses! Its much more than i ever thought and iv got a lot to think about how to approach the next step with her.

Im very willing to put in the time and energy into trying to make her a happier dog outdoors, i dont want a miracle overnight, i realise its going to take a lot of time to totally change her way of thinking and acting. Judging by the comments im starting on the right track with the training, im going to seriously step it up and also get her 'down' command up to scratch as thats one thing she needs practise on, then again she knows what it means as when she tried to nick a chicken off the side the other day i hollered at her to get down and lie down and she did it right away, i think when outside im giving her the impression than im letting her make the choice rather than demanding the right response? if that makes sense? Im definately going to be more aware of that.

I can say that her health has drastically improved though even if her behavior hasnt! She came to me underweight with very sparse hair on her back, and quarters and a very dull coat, it was making her very uncomfortable. no sign of fleas and owner said it was just something she gets. My gut instinct said food intolerance so i changed her from the cheap biscuits she was on, to raw and she has started to grow her coat back although it is still quite coarse but she now shines beautifully. She was also bathed in oatmeal shampoo to sooth the skin where she has been nibbling, she nibbles only the normal amount a dog does now, rather than out of discomfort.

She came with very overgrown claws which are now a lot shorter and no longer push her toes up when she walks although they do need a little more attention, thankfully shes a doddle to clip claws, lays on her back with her legs in the air and just lets me get on with it bless her.

In a few months when my other animals dont eat me out of house and home and cost a fortune (only reason i live with my brother is that i either had to cut down house costs or rehome my horse, my horse won and i rent a room in his house, thank god hes an animal person!!) I should then be able to reevaluate my financial situation and see about getting a trainer if i still feel i need one. I also need to get her spayed and chipped.

Thank you everyone for the encouragement and advice, i wasnt even going to post but im so glad i did.
Il keep everyone posted on our progress, good or bad

 

[Dobiegirl]

You sound as though youve got your head screwed on, one thing I would say if you want to get your dog to get off something say off, the down command is that down, no need to add the lie down otherwise it gets confusing. They are very intelligent dogs and Im sure with all the work you put in you will have a dog to be proud off, all mine have gone on to welcome other dogs and be very sensible in their behaviour, be warned though they dont get their sensible head on until they are 3-4 years old.

Be careful who you pick as a trainer as I went through a few, tbh I was kicked out of classes when they saw him in action, that how come I went to an ex police dog trainer, the man had no people skills but he sure knew dogs.

Getting her spayed and chipped is vital, good luck and ask away if you need anymore help, dont be tempted to give her loads and loads of exercise as I did with mine, you just end up with a dog as fit as a racehorse and they are a dog you can never tire out, lots of training will engage their brain and tire them.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Rather than the Halti, our Rottweilers have a check type rope lead used in a figure of 8 round the nose and it stops any unwanted forward movement brilliantly. We use that in conjunction with a harness with an anti-pull lead, which doesn't actually stop them pulling but absorbs the impact for the owner.

This arrangemtn would not obviate the need for a trainer but might make your life a bit easier until you can get to one.

 

[Alec Swan]

You sound as though youve got your head screwed on, …….. be warned though they dont get their sensible head on until they are 3-4 years old.

Be careful who you pick as a trainer ……...

Three points, and all entirely correct.

Alec.

 

[Holzdweaver]

So after a couple of days, we had a happy moment today

My confidence over the past few days has grown and although i do feel a bit like a demanding school teacher at times i know i have to be stricter for her sake.
After the recent snow and sleet which froze and made footing bad here, things have been quiet, kind of felt like i was missing out on an apocalypse or something as it was like a ghost town! as we hardly saw anyone out and about we couldnt practise much on the major obstacles like going past other dogs (does noone else walk there dogs in bad weather or something!?!), only saw one yesterday morning and she did the usual behavior but to be fair the other dog was lead reactive too and it kind of blew her head off. so i took advantage of the lull and did a few short training sessions outside on the field without a lot of the normal distractions. i was (didnt realise i was until i scrutinized my body placement in every scenario!) allowing her shoulder to drift in front of my knee, especially when she started to look at something, not sure how important that is but i no longer allow this at all, at any time, and to be honest her body language since reinforcing this has been a lot more relaxed and i feel i am in more control and shes less likely to whip my legs from under me if she does a sideways charge!
This afternoon while heeling asking her to sit at my side and look at me and generally getting her to focus and pay attention for longer periods of time, a train went past behind us (really should get a timetable as it would benefit us!), she stiffened and went to turn and look when she heard it and i immediately squared my shoulders, looked up and started walking forwards like i hadn't even noticed it was there and she dropped the focus back to me, she did have one jump after a few steps but i set my hand next to my side and just carried on, changed direction so i was between the train and her and she followed me, she did keep looking towards it and pulled forwards a few times which i checked, but she didnt then escalate to a twist or lunge or leap through my legs. She may have lost focus but for the first time i actually regained it back and i didnt feel like she was spiraling out of control like usual. Such a small thing really as the train was across the other side of the field but wow did it make me feel good

 

[Dobiegirl]

Sounds like you are doing well and she is listening to you, you are listening to her too and I would say the minute she starts to stiffen say leave it in a loud voice, this will reinforce what you are doing and leave her in no doubt that is precisely what she has to do. You need to remain vigilant to keep on top of her behaviour,dont allow her to look or focus on anything without your sayso. I think this dog may have been guarding you but now she needs to know you are in charge and you can look after yourself, its your job not hers, I think you will end up with a fantastic dog.