Advice needed re: waterford snaffle/bit evasion

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Moomin1

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My mare is an absolute nightmare to get working nicely. She is quick off the leg into transitions, and keeps moving without nagging, but just refuses to actually use herself properly and pokes her nose with a high head carriage. She will work down after lots and lots of effort from myself, but I then find she sets her jaw and gives me blisters on my hands! She doesn't give two hoots about a tap with the whip, and I have ridden her without spurs/with comb spurs, and with Sprenger spurs, which help slightly but she barely notices them! I've done all of the suggested exercises ie lots of transitions, pushing on into an active canter when she gets lazy etc etc, which doesn't really help with her outline because the problem isn't with her responsiveness to transitions, it is more with her using the energy properly. I try my best to keep the energy contained with a steady contact but she will put up as much fight as possible to refuse to round her back.

Teeth, back, saddle are fine.

With regard diet, her old owner tried allsorts and found nothing made any difference. I am reluctant to change her diet from a high fibre only because she is porky and she is, other than in the school, a highly strung horse who can be very spooky and flighty.

So today I decided to get a bit tougher on her, and I changed her bit from a Nueue Schule lozenge to a waterford snaffle, and bought some rowel spurs. I started off very very softly softly to suss out how she felt about both, and then tried to gently urge her to start working down into an outline. Only to find that she still sets her jaw against the waterford, crossing it and pulling. She was more responsive to the rowel spurs (although I still had to use them a fair bit).

I used to ride her in a flash noseband but found that didn't help, but am aware that she has a fairly large tongue and have been told that the flash can restrict them further.

Have wondered about a grakle noseband, any advice?

I cannot afford regular lessons at the moment so that is out of the question, although I do realise that I am never going to achieve a huge amount without. I would just appreciate any advice or help really?
 
Abbeygale said:
Will she work into an outline on the lunge? Or is it just ridden that she does giraffe impressions ;)
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No she flies around with her head in the air! Although that being said I don't use any gadgets when lunging! She is a lazy madam on the lunge and barely responds to the whip. Again, she will listen to voice aids and keep going but she doesn't put any effort in. She will only use herself when she decides to have a hooley on the lunge because the other horses are galloping around the field, and then she will go flat out with her tail up and snorting! :mad:
 
I use a Waterford loose ring snaffle on my boy after he used to grab hold of the previous bit with his teeth. It worked beautifully for him. I have no experience with Grakle nosebands, but maybe you would benefit with a lesson with someone who can help you rather than spending money on a Grakle to begin with? It may work out cheaper than buying a noseband and at least you would get someone elses advice on your problem. Could you have 1/2 lessons per month? If thats a possibility then that may help you out. I only have 2 lessons a month and they soon come round.
 
I would try dropping the contact and make her carry herself.

I'm not sure what is your reasoning for using spurs, as you say she is quick off the leg and responsive.

If you cannot afford lessons, can you ask a knowledgeable friend to watch you ride and make suggestions, or ask some-one to video your riding , so that you can watch what is happening?

If she has a large tongue, she would probably be best with a slim bit. Have you considered using a PeeWee?
 
Has she ever been taught to work on an outline, or has she just started evading?

Tbh I would get someone on the ground to offer some pointers while you are riding, and also get videos of you riding so OU can see what is going on from the ground as well.

I fully understand the not being able to afford regular lessons - but could you maybe have a couple of lessons, and the go back when you can for lessons? It does sound as though you could do with some help with your girly. Tbh I rarely go for lessons regulary - just when I can afford it and am able. If you are going for a lesson every now and then, try and get it all videoed, so you can watch it back loads. That way you can take in everything, and so make the. Ost of every lesson you can manage to have :)
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I would try dropping the contact and make her carry herself.

I'm not sure what is your reasoning for using spurs, as you say she is quick off the leg and responsive.

If you cannot afford lessons, can you ask a knowledgeable friend to watch you ride and make suggestions, or ask some-one to video your riding , so that you can watch what is happening?

If she has a large tongue, she would probably be best with a slim bit. Have you considered using a PeeWee?
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She definately needs the spurs. She is quick into her transitions, but not forward in her movement, if that makes sense. So basically she will move off my leg immediately into trot, but trying to get her to put any effort into her work and using her back end takes one heck of a lot of leg, and it's exhausting constantly squeezing and kicking!

I have had Pootleperkin who is a lot better and more experienced in schooling than I am ride my mare and then give me a few pointers on my riding which really helped, but unfortunately she lives miles away so not a regular option, and I wouldn't want to take the mick too if I wasn't paying someone to help.

Apparently my mare has competed at winter dressage and come 2nd a few times, so she can do it - she is just hard work!

I def could do with proper lessons, it's just I don't have transport and most of the instructors I know will charge extra to come out to me. I do think it's the way forward though.

With regard the grackle - I have found a really decent one on offer for £10 so that is why I wondered whether to snaffle it up (excuse the pun!) :D
 
a waterford really isn't the answer, there is just no way you can establish a good contact with a bit with so many joints, the whole point of it is that it discourages the horse from taking the contact. also, they're not allowed for dressage, btw.
i know from experience that when my horses need mctimoney chiropracty treatment, there is no point even trying to ask them into an outline. it's not that they won't, it's that they CAN'T give at the jaw and poll. once they are comfortable, if you send the horse forward in a steady rhythm into an elastic contact (which might take lessons, sorry but this isn't usually something you can learn by trial and error unfortunately) the horse should give willingly at the jaw and poll, it isn't something you have to keep nagging for...
 
If lessons aren't an option then I'd go with pearlsasingers advice. I'd also do a lot of lunging with the emphasis on forward and introduce side reins. Not a gadget person but once she's comfortable with a lower head carriage I'd use a chambon for small amounts of time. Is she more forward hacking? If so start introducing a contact in ridden work whilst out.
 
littlelegs said:
If lessons aren't an option then I'd go with pearlsasingers advice. I'd also do a lot of lunging with the emphasis on forward and introduce side reins. Not a gadget person but once she's comfortable with a lower head carriage I'd use a chambon for small amounts of time. Is she more forward hacking? If so start introducing a contact in ridden work whilst out.
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Tried dropping the contact - done lots and lots of all this and all she does is go faster and faster and poke her nose as much as she can!

With regard lunging - how do I get the emphasis on forward? She doesn't respond to the whip and she is just the same as when ridden - she responds to me asking for transition but she doesn't put any effort in at all when she is moving!! She will keep moving no problems but just doesn't use herself. I am very reluctant to start using gadgets (although wouldn't rule them out) because from what I gather her old owner did a lot of schooling in draw reins and I sort of think this is where the problem may lie in the first place. Maybe I'm wrong but I think she has possibly learnt that without gadgets she can be as evasive as possible.

She has a good topline and has done dressage like I say (with her old owner) so she is more than capable of going in an outline, it's just that she is hard work and pretty obstinate.
 
How unresponsive to a whip is she? Would she respond to a crack of it behind her? With the bhs approved phrase 'get up, get on with you trot on' etc' if a crack won't do it get her close enough to touch (not beat!) her with it if you have to till she realises that its there to reinforce your voice. If she races round with her head up for ten mins, she will eventually drop it. Once she's done a nice transition work on keeping the rythem with lots tr-ot on & clicking & good girls rather than waiting till she's starting to lose it.
As for the gadgets, side reins on a setting correct for her level of work are the same as reins, & I'd only use a chambon to reinforce long & low when she's able to work like that anyway, wouldn't advise one now.
 
littlelegs said:
How unresponsive to a whip is she? Would she respond to a crack of it behind her? With the bhs approved phrase 'get up, get on with you trot on' etc' if a crack won't do it get her close enough to touch (not beat!) her with it if you have to till she realises that its there to reinforce your voice. If she races round with her head up for ten mins, she will eventually drop it. Once she's done a nice transition work on keeping the rythem with lots tr-ot on & clicking & good girls rather than waiting till she's starting to lose it.
As for the gadgets, side reins on a setting correct for her level of work are the same as reins, & I'd only use a chambon to reinforce long & low when she's able to work like that anyway, wouldn't advise one now.
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She's pretty unresponsive - I have to chase her and even then I get an initial reaction but then she settles back to her lazy ways within a few paces (unless of course she is on one of her mad lunges when she just goes insane and I spend ten minutes trying to use voice aids to stop her from cantering flat out and screaming to her friends). She does have a very natural high head carriage - even when she moves around the field she holds her head very high.

Have been thinking I may try the side reins for a while, but have been putting it off as like I say I'm not a fan really. But I do feel it's about time to get a bit harder on her really. :rolleyes:
 
It sounds as if you are trying too hard! My mare can be the same and allthough never really giraffenlike she can be 'lazy'. my answer...........less is more! I have found by trial and error that I have to be relaxed and I do lots of work at the beginning of a session on a loose rein. walk, trot and canter on a loose rein with changes of direction and transitions. Your mare sounds almost bored with your routine. Once I have loosened her up I can then ask for a bit more.

Work in hand and on the lunge is good. I use a team fredericks lungee bungie and find it the best piece of equipment for my horse as she just buck against a pessoa.

you need to keep your schooling session varied, interesting and short, Once you get even the slightest bit of improvement and softness call it a day. Do plenty of hacking as well to give her a break from school work.
 
Hey you,

Use the side reins or chambon on the lunge, at least for a while!! Don't look at them as a gadget, they are invaluable to help her find her balance, learn to carry herself and if nothing else make her work!! You can get behind her (as suggested here) with the lunge whip with them on to make her work from behind and she isn't going to be able to do giraffe impressions very well, or for very long. All you want it to get her to change her mind set and work over her back.

Half her problem is fitness I think - get her fit (thinner) and she will find self-carriage easier, I think she is lazy because she gets tired as much as anything - do you agree? It's easy for her to trot in circles leaning on you for a good long time without engaging her back end, so she kind of lulls you into thinking she is fitter than she is. The lunging can help with this, making her work without making you knackered! I didn't realise you lunged without side reins - they don't have to be tight, just enough to replicate a steady contact for her to work into and it doesn't have to be forever - needs must and all that.

I don't think her old owner rode her particularly well - the person who did was her instructor who was fit, knew which buttons to press and I guess, kept her busy while schooling, making her think forward. Plus she was ridden and exercised a lot, so was pretty fit. What bit was she in back then, 'cos we know she could go well in it - thinking about it, perhaps bits aren't the way to go, rather it's a case of long, hard, boring work, turning both of you into lean, hard, fit machines!!

Don't get frustrated, given the time you can spend with her, I think you do pretty well, but choose your battles and equipment :)
 
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