Advice needed (Very Long - sorry!)

[Janicemacd_2010]

I have posted a few times before but due to the nature of this request I'd like to remain anonymous.

I sold a foal to a veterinary nurse and believed this person to be a friend (have known this person for years and she is local to me).
The person paid deposit for the foal when he was still on his mother, She had 'family' problems by the time she was due to get him and asked if I could keep him a little longer, I agreed as it really wasn't a problem as he could run with the rest of the youngsters ( I didn't ask for any additional payments for feed or worming). She then asked if I would geld him for her and she would pay when she got him.
When it came to April I had him gelded and she was ready for him in the May (6months after original agreement) and she asked me if I would keep his passport and she would get it when she paid for the castration. I 'stupidly' agreed and delivered him for her, she kept me up to date with progress etc for a couple of months but no payment was made for his castration.
I eventually asked her for payment and said she really should come and get his passport. Still nothing to date!!!
Now she has decided she wants to sell him and another friend of mine has gone to see another horse she had for sale and saw him - he is seemingly in a terrible state and sounds like he may have bastard strangles. I'm absolutely heart broken as I did not mean to bring him into the world to have this treatment. She is leaving him in a stable 24/7 no bedding, just poo to lie on and she hasn't been handling him and he is very head shy and completely bonkers. She has not asked for a vet to visit and is not cleaning his abscesses (sp).
I feel responsible as I bred him and I am also concerned that his passport is still in my name because I'm sure that there is a case of cruelty here and that people who will see him to buy will report her to WHW or SSPCA.
I don't know whether to go see him or whether to leave well alone, I don't have the facilities to deal with an outbreak of strangles (if that is what he has) as I have over 30 horses at the moment (breed them) And I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to keep my cool if he is in a terrible state.

Also since selling him to her I have found out that she has been mentioned on HHO previously for acquiring horses with navicular or KS and selling them on as jumping horses. I'm sure she would be in terrible trouble with her work for this but I'm not really up for causing her trouble, I'd rather sort out the youngster.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, I really would appreciate some ideas on how I might deal with this.

 

[horsesfornow]

I would call the RSPCA tell them whats happened with your name being on the passport etc, let them sort it out ASAP.

 

[Izzwizz]

If shes neglecting your youngster then whats she doing with the rest of her horses? If shes knowingly selling on horses with problems then she needs to be reported to Trading Standards. In the youngsters best interests she needs reporting to an official body and that also goes for the other horses in her posession. Poor baby.

 

[Happy Bird]

Has she actually paid you for the foal ? If she hasn't paid you I would take the foal back (after making sure he doens't have strangles). People like that don't deserve animals. At the very least, you can report her anonymously to the RSPCA ??? What a sad situation. Hope it gets resolved.

 

[Gingerwitch]

wow - what a horrid story.

I would go and see the youngster asap - and use the other information you have to get your poor thing back at a £1 if you have too.

Take someone with you - and let them deal with the talking side of things - be nice if you have (even if it kills you)- if it gets you your foal back.

But my main advise is to do something NOW - the more you wait the more you will conjure up horrific pictures in your head, and this will probably let your heart rule your mouth.

 

[nicolaread]

the thing is the passport isnt actually proff of ownership so it doesnt really matter that the passport is stillin your name, chances are she could have had a new one made for him since he has been in her care (esspecially with her professional connections) I dont see that there is anything you can do, if she has paid you for the horse then he belongs to her and as heartbreaking as it is for you to know that he is being so badly treated there is nothing you can so. And like you say if your breeding horses yourself then you cant risk your horses getting strangles. Perhaps you should report her to the RSPCA and see how that pans out?

 

[joeanne]

Firstly.....has she paid you what is outstanding on the foal?
If not that could make things a whole lot easier.
Secondly (not wanting to make you feel worst but...) you have broken the law. You have sold a horse and retained his passport, its irrelevent as to whether she asked you to or not. The law is the law.
If she has not paid you for the colt, then go and get him back. Go to the local police station, explain the situation, and inform them of your intentions. If she has not paid, she doesnt own him.
Failing that contact the BHS and ask advice, and speak to your local welfare officer. They may be in a position to offer you good advice.
I hope you get it sorted out.

 

[No1_in_particular]

She doesn't have more than 2 horses at a time, sells one the one that's been written off and buys or is given another. She has done this with 2 that I know of.

She has paid me for the foal (he'll be 2yo in May) but not for his castration £150, I know it's not much but it was agreed that she would pay it then get the passport, now I feel like a complete a$$ for believing her.

I will need to see him for myself before I can report him. I am not really a fan of the SSPCA so will go with the WHW if I do have to go down the reporting road and I will tell her what I'm doing.

I really need to get a grip and face this problem, I do feel responsible for him and should not have let him go to that home!

I just wish I could get in without seeing her because I don't know how I'll deal with it should he be in a state and she's there....

I'm sorry for babbling!

 

[spike123]

OMG what a total B**ch.If you are concerned about the foal's welfare but worried it could come back on you as you are still the legal owner according to the passport then I suggest you get in touch with either WHW or BHS and ask them to investigate. If you say nothing either the horse will suffer further or if someone else calls them in it could fall back on you if this woman is dealing in unrideable horses she could spin a lie that she has only just brought it from you.

 

[ofcourseyoucan]

you could say to her if she doesnt pay the £X for the castration within 7 days you will come and collect horse, and the castration fee will be the sale cost to her. or threaten small calims for the balance outstanding. think she has taken you for a mug .. castration and free livery til she was ready?

 

[kerilli]

I would put his welfare first, i'd be on my way there now with a vet, a video camera, and the Rspca on speed dial if necessary.

 

[Ladybird]

I think you're logged in under the wrong username...

 

[nicolaread]

dont tell her what you plan on doing, if you do that you give her the perfect oppourtunity to move the horse before a welfare officer turns up. I know you feel responsible for the horse but this is one of the pit falls of selling a horse, you will always try to let them go to a good home, but there is nothing you can do if they fall into bad hands. try not 2 beat yourself up too badly over it, do what is in your power but at the end of the day thats all you can do.

 

[Happy Bird]

Is there no way you can 'drop in' and say you were passing by ?? Sorry, don't know the situation...... guess it's not really about the £150 but more about the welfare of the horse now. Could you call her and say you've heard he's for sale ? Can you buy him back and deduct the cost of the castration ?

 

[JJtheJetPlane]

Goodness what a situation i can understand that your obviously very upset.

Could you take a trip to her place with the passport in hand as an excuse . Take a look at the horse yourself and if its in the state you think it is then im sure youll know what to do. It sounds like there is someething un toward going on and i dont think your the kind of person to just turn a blind eye. The poor bugger is probably really pissed off been locked up in a dirty stable so no wonder he is bonkers who wouldnt be he wants to get out and run around in the fresh air. The least he deserves is some bedding.
If he doesnt have strangles is there anyway you could ask if she needs some help with him she appears to be struggling to look after him ? I think best to go in softly to start with?
Just a few ideas ?

 

[No1_in_particular]

you are right - I am!
Nobody knows me on this anyway so I'm sure I'll be ok!

Also I haven't mentioned any names so soundn't be done for defamation of character hopefully!

All this stress makes me no good at being sensible!

I'd make a crap undercover cop!

 

[Ladybird]

As long as you're covered the don't worry!

I'd give either the BHS/WHW a call and explain what you've told us, you don't have to give them any names or anything, just ask them for advice and find out what their course of action would be.
If it sounds reasonable then they would probably be the best way to go as they're prepared to take on cases and will have quarantine measures to put in place.

Another option would be to call her nicely as if you know nothing and perhaps say you regret selling or something along those lines and offer refund, first minus the £150 for castration, going up to that if needs be.

Also, depending on how much of a law abiding citizen you are (and I don't advise this course of action as I'm sure you could get into some bother), did you give this person a receipt of payment, or were there any witnesses to payment. If not then as far as anybody needs to be concerned the horse was only on loan.

 

[No1_in_particular]

Would love to be able to just 'drop in' but I'm not supposed to know where they are. She has been avoiding calls, messages on fb etc.

She did offer him for sale to me in november for £1500, i sold him for £1000 and was paid for him. He is a very well bred horse (qh x connemarra tb) he really is / was a stunner and had a lot to live up to by his parentage. I didn't ask her anything for feeding him for the winter or worming him.

I know what I will say to her if a see him and he's in a state but I just need to get the confidence to go there.

I might try tomorrow but to be honest I don't have that kind of money to buy him back, I have had vet bill after vet bill last year and already 2 for 2010 and feeding 30+ horses at £30 a bale I just don't think I could afford him.......... If I did get him back and he had strangles I couldn't bring him here and i'm not sure I'd be able to give him the care he needs (although I'd give it my best shot!) and I'm sure it would be better than he is getting at the moment.....

 

[Ladybird]

In that case I would seriously consider calling the WHW, I've never had any dealings with them myself but they are considered the most useful of the welfare organisations

 

[Happy Bird]

I think I would have to just turn up to be honest. Be polite (not that she deserves it) and at least try to see him, so you can see what state he's in. I don't think you have a choice if she refuses to take any of your calls. Take a friend for moral support ~ somebody very calm.... Good Luck ! She does owe you money at the end of the day... I would at least try that, and if that doesn't work, you will have to think again... Sorry, I know that's not very helpful....

 

[No1_in_particular]

Yes, I agree.

I'm asking myself "what would I say to someone who is in my position"....... I would have to agree in that a visit is required.

I'll maybe even speak to my vet to test him for strangles (if he's in a bad way etc) and if he's clean I'll just bring him down the road......... I'll offer her little for him (+ the money she already owes me) and will make it clear to her that she'd be struck off for the way he is.....

 

[kendra2705]

if the passport is in your name i would go and get the poor little bugger back , but be aware moving a horse with strangles is not the best thing to do especially if you have other horses. go see him then way up the situation .

 

[Angelbones]

Oh dear how awful. Now, having taken on board all the other replies, I'll put my devil's hat on here and suggest, in a totally hyperthetical way, that some undercover photos be taken, contact the authorities, and perhaps an anonymous phone call to the vets practice where she works saying you have seen a pony in a dreadful state at X address....

Now I take my devil hat off and tell you to go about it properly and lawfully. Ooops.

Good luck with it, sounds like the poor chap need someone looking out for him.

 

[KingCharles]

What i cant understand is:

a} If she is a friend of yours, who you have known for years and lives local to you. How could you of not known about the fact that they deal in horses? If you didnt know, how did you find out and who told you?

B} how do you know he may have strangles? How do you know he is in an empty stable 27/7 on poo, and is head shy? if you have not been there and had a look your self , then how can you know that what you have been told is even true?

If a friend has told you this, then how do they know if they where just going to this persons yard to look at a horse for sale? Did they stay at the yard 24/7 for weeks at a time to come up with the conclusion that this youngster is looked after in such away.

c} why would anyone go and view a horse, on a yard where they may be strangles? If your friend did nto know there where strangles on the yard, fair enougth. Has owener admitted to friend that she dosnt look after the youngster ot has nto had a vet out? Is the owner ahorse vet nurse? is she maybe seeing to the youngster her self?

d} regardless of the fact you have thos youngsters passport, you have sold it on, and you no longer legally own it. Did you get anythign in writing to say that they woudl pay the cost of the castration?

i am sure there are laws about moving horses with strangles. You cant just turn up and take him home, he is no longer yours.

i think you first need to establish weather what you have been told is true!

However even if it is, and the welfare get isvolved, i dont see how you will get him back. If you cant afford to give her the money back she paid for him less the castration, then i dont see how you will get him back. report her to the rspca and let them decide if she is looking after her horses, if she is then, it could be you have been fed lies.

 

[No1_in_particular]

a} If she is a friend of yours, who you have known for years and lives local to you. How could you of not known about the fact that they deal in horses? If you didnt know, how did you find out and who told you?

I have known this person since school age, she was not always a horsey person and took it up as a hobby later on, She is not a dealer, the stories she told me was that the horses were not suitable for her which is fair enough. I know that the horses have not been suitable to be ridden unless on special diets and certainly not supposed to be jumped etc, I found this out because her first horse was purchased from someone who was trying to trace him on HHO because he had been sold on to an unsuitable home.


B} how do you know he may have strangles? How do you know he is in an empty stable 27/7 on poo, and is head shy? if you have not been there and had a look your self , then how can you know that what you have been told is even true?

The person who has told me has been a GOOD friend for a long time, know quite a lot about horses and told me what she saw when she was there. I have already said that I have to see for myself. The way his abscesses (sp) have been described sounds like it could be strangles and the horse she was looking at that was for sale has come from a dealer who has had many horses with strangles and is because of people like him that the disease is so widespread. The horse is as thin as a rake and there was no food or water available, the girl who owns him was chatting for ages and it's not difficult to give a horse a drink and chat at the same time.

If a friend has told you this, then how do they know if they where just going to this persons yard to look at a horse for sale? Did they stay at the yard 24/7 for weeks at a time to come up with the conclusion that this youngster is looked after in such away.

See above

c} why would anyone go and view a horse, on a yard where they may be strangles? If your friend did nto know there where strangles on the yard, fair enougth. Has owener admitted to friend that she dosnt look after the youngster ot has nto had a vet out? Is the owner ahorse vet nurse? is she maybe seeing to the youngster her self?

She is a veterinary nurse, The practice she works in only deal with small animals. If she is dealing with it herself then surely she would be able to cleean up the pus, it has grown hard all over both sides of his face and there is no way she would get away with that should her work know.

d} regardless of the fact you have thos youngsters passport, you have sold it on, and you no longer legally own it. Did you get anythign in writing to say that they woudl pay the cost of the castration?

I had on the receiot that she was to pay for the castration and would receive the passport, we both signed this.

i am sure there are laws about moving horses with strangles. You cant just turn up and take him home, he is no longer yours.

I have not suggested that I would bring him home, he is not mine and I certainly do not want to break the law. What I have said I may do is offer for him.

i think you first need to establish weather what you have been told is true!

I know I have to do this and that is why I have not contacted her or any welfare authorities.

However even if it is, and the welfare get isvolved, i dont see how you will get him back. If you cant afford to give her the money back she paid for him less the castration, then i dont see how you will get him back. report her to the rspca and let them decide if she is looking after her horses, if she is then, it could be you have been fed lies.

I will go and have a look at him myself and i will contact WHW if need be. I don't believe he is worth what I sold him for as his handling has not been kept up and he is a complete bag of bones (according to my friend) I will have a look and see how I get on.

 

[Tamba]

What did you do?????? Did you pay her a visit?
I thought hard what would I do,
That is a very hard situation, and I cant imagine why would someone spend a grand buying a foal to neglect him? Its so bizarre to me. Could you not ask your friend to go up to see her again, and see if things have improved any? Maybe she just caught her on a bad day?? when she was pushed to get her stable duties done. I cant see why anyone who obviously knows better, (being a vet nurse) would keep an animal in such a way?
Any update??? I really hope the situation is sorted out.