Advice on aggression please.

Honey08

Honey08

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I have two labs. We have a smallholding in the country with a few footpaths crossing our land. There is a field to the side of our house that is not ours, but we tend to let the dogs out in it as there is never any stock in it and its dryer than our land. There is a footpath through that field too that is fairly popular (again as it is dry and leads to a council carpark).

The dogs seem to think of this field as theirs. They get very aggressive towards dogs that are in that field. They are the same with any dogs that are walked down the lane. The same for any that pass the stables (where the dogs are often loose on the yard while I do the yard).

Yesterday they were loose in the field when they spotted a dog at the other end of the field. They hurtled off barking with me in pursuit. The bigger female dog ran at the dog barking and growling. The smaller male ran over wanting to play. The other dog was scared, thought it was being attacked and went for my male, who snarled back but didn't do anything (however I thought they were going to fight). I caught them up and shouted at the dogs. The other dog's owner had headphones on and hadn't seen anything. The other dog was scared and ran to me. When my dogs moved away because I shouted the other dog ran to her owner.

Today I saw the same dog coming through the field so I got my two from the house on leads and went into the field. Making them sit down and smacking them for growling. I apologised to the owner, who hadn't realised anything had happened!!

Anyone any ideas on how to deal with this? When we are not on home territory they are fine. We go to Burghley and Bramham and camp, and they lie outside the caravan without a murmur no matter how many dogs walk past. They are the same when out on walks. So I'm not sure that going to dog training classes would help as its 99% when they are at home..

The female lab is grumpy with other dogs, very much a people dog, wouldn't care if she saw a dog in her life. She will be 8 this year. The smaller male is a very energetic 4yr old who thinks every other dog is put on this earth to play with him. He has got a lot better lately, was totally hyper at first (was a rescue who was 14 months when he came). I think that half the aggression we see from the female is jealousy of the male's ability to socialise - she spoils the game by running at the other dogs growling/barking.. With friends dogs who come, and who know her and ignore her she calms down very quickly and goes back to doing her own thing or being with the humans. But she is very big and loud so can scare other dogs. Underneath it she is a very wimpy dog and scared of a lot of things.

Anyway, any ideas. At the moment I'm thinking of having her on a long lead in the field or putting a muzzle on, and making her sit while dogs go past if I can.
 
Socialise the older dog more with other dogs. Take her out on her owns let her meet and run around with other dogs. You will have to approach other owners and explain what you are trying to do. She will learn other dogs are not a threat to her. It's hard and time consuming work. But it does work
 
Most reputable behaviourists won't deal with aggression except by means of a proper consultation and in depth look at what is going on - it is too easy to make it worse and risk the dogs life (aggressive dogs have been known to be PTS). Socialising is a good idea, as is keeping a score out of 10 for every episode - if it gets worse after you have begun any remedial action stop immediately. Train a consistent recall and very swift down (think INSTANT) to interrupt any behaviour before it gets going, and yes, smacking adds fear and resentment to the mix.
I really would recommend you get a good behaviourist from the APBC list (properly trained and accountable) if you think it might become a real problem http://www.apbc.org.uk/help/regions
 
fence the field that does not belong to you and only allow your dogs access to it when you are in control, on a line, one at a time, she is not jealous she is more likely to be mis reading cues due to lack of socialisation,
loose running dogs are often a problem when other people dogs have access to the area.

putting yours on leads, walking over there on mass, probably with you feeling tense and cross and smacking the dogs would most likely give them a completely different message to the one you wanted to, ie get the pack together march out to get the invaders, energy levels are up-we are off to fight and then no fight but the energy is re-directed to yours dogs with the smacking.

put fences up, if your dogs get stirred up at certain boundaries - dont allow them access, where possible fence off and divide the pair of them in these areas, try to stay calm but in control-no shouting just call them away when you see a situation arising-use treats toys and games when they get back to you, if you need to go right the way to having the dogs with you tied up at all times you cannot watch them so that you are 100% in control.

get a behaviourist if you need to

Hard work to crack this one
 
I would go for basic training - don't let your dogs run wild, teach proper and instant recall and sit and stay.
 
To be honest you will be hard pushed to change ingrained behaviour much in an eight year old dog and it will be easier to manage the behaviour rather than completely change it.

With the field behaviour, this is just classic territorial stuff. She sees it as her field, she has been led to believe it is her field, now because she has seen an interloper off her field, the rules are going to change and it will be hard for her to understand why.

I wouldn't call it jealousy, sounds more like she sees the younger dog and yourself as members of her troop and she is getting in there first and protecting everyone else from the interlopers.

She is growling and barking - not going in straight away and biting, so I would see that as a positive - she is just saying 'get off my land'.

This is an entirely personal thing but I think making a dog sit while other dogs pass can too easily create a Mexican standoff, increase frustration, I would rather keep the dog moving and give it something to do and think about rather than sit and watch the other dog get closer and closer.

As mentioned a bit of one to one might help, and cut her a bit of slack, if this is the way it has always been and she thinks she is doing the right thing by protecting her boundary.
As mentioned, better recall, focus, a drop/down command and re-establishing yourself as the one who protects the household will all be a big help. Keep her on a long line to begin with, I don't think a muzzle is required if she has gone this long without breaking the skin on another dog.
 
CaveCanem said:
To be honest you will be hard pushed to change ingrained behaviour much in an eight year old dog and it will be easier to manage the behaviour rather than completely change it.

With the field behaviour, this is just classic territorial stuff. She sees it as her field, she has been led to believe it is her field, now because she has seen an interloper off her field, the rules are going to change and it will be hard for her to understand why.

I wouldn't call it jealousy, sounds more like she sees the younger dog and yourself as members of her troop and she is getting in there first and protecting everyone else from the interlopers.

She is growling and barking - not going in straight away and biting, so I would see that as a positive - she is just saying 'get off my land'.

This is an entirely personal thing but I think making a dog sit while other dogs pass can too easily create a Mexican standoff, increase frustration, I would rather keep the dog moving and give it something to do and think about rather than sit and watch the other dog get closer and closer.

As mentioned a bit of one to one might help, and cut her a bit of slack, if this is the way it has always been and she thinks she is doing the right thing by protecting her boundary.
As mentioned, better recall, focus, a drop/down command and re-establishing yourself as the one who protects the household will all be a big help. Keep her on a long line to begin with, I don't think a muzzle is required if she has gone this long without breaking the skin on another dog.
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I would have thought that fencing the boundaries would be a good idea too
 
Thanks for your thoughts.

The boundaries are fenced. All our footpaths are fenced off. When they're at the yard they can't get at any dogs going past, but will go down the drive to bark.

Re the taking them into the field, I didn't march them in all worked up. I took the chance to have them calm and under control and thought it would be easier to work with them there than when they are loose as the day before all the things that usually bring them back (whistle, treats and a ball) didn't work.. She got a smack because she didn't sit when asked despite me asking her four times. She knew what I wanted but was ignoring me, if you know what I mean. It worked and she listened to me and sat. In the past when she has been pulling and growling towards other dogs in the lane, making her lie down has stopped her. This was my aim really. When she sat down I did tell her off when she growled.

I don't think it is her protecting us. She is a very unconfident dog. She is scared of everything, the horses, the electric fence, the cat etc. A real coward of a dog. She has been very socialised in the past. She went to every dog class going with her previous owner (until she was two) including doggy swimming lessons! This problem started after we got the other dog, who is a much more confident dog that loves playing with other dogs (whereas as I said she prefers people). He is much faster and agile than her, and she couldn't ever keep up with him running with another younger dog, so she would barge in growling as if to stop the game. She is a very clever, cunning dog - if he is getting fuss from us she will immediately find one of his squeaky toys and squeak it nearby so that he rushes off to play, then she will take his place for cuddles. If she is running towards another dog and they growl or bark back she literally runs a mile. Its only if a dog stops and shows any fear that she will continue. When friends bring dogs they just ignore her and everything calms down within seconds. The same for dogs that are walked past every day and stop for a chat - they know her, they ignore her, and everything is fine. As I said, when we are camping at Bramham or Burghley where there are loads of other dogs on the site, she doesn't do anything. Last year we were next to a caravan full of yappy Yorkies that barked at our dogs every time they saw them and she didn't react at all. I really think its a mixture of territory and jealousy.

I've spoken to a neighbour today who has a new dog, and we are going to walk them together next week a few times. I'm also going to take her down nearer the village on her own at times when lots of people walk their dogs. Trouble is, I really don't think there will be any issue when she is away from here. And yes, we will have to keep her in our field that she can't get out of even if its hock deep in mud!
 
Honey08 said:
Thanks for your thoughts.

The boundaries are fenced. All our footpaths are fenced off. When they're at the yard they can't get at any dogs going past, but will go down the drive to bark.

Re the taking them into the field, I didn't march them in all worked up. I took the chance to have them calm and under control and thought it would be easier to work with them there than when they are loose as the day before all the things that usually bring them back (whistle, treats and a ball) didn't work.. She got a smack because she didn't sit when asked despite me asking her four times. She knew what I wanted but was ignoring me, if you know what I mean. It worked and she listened to me and sat. In the past when she has been pulling and growling towards other dogs in the lane, making her lie down has stopped her. This was my aim really. When she sat down I did tell her off when she growled.

I don't think it is her protecting us. She is a very unconfident dog. She is scared of everything, the horses, the electric fence, the cat etc. A real coward of a dog.
She has been very socialised in the past. She went to every dog class going with her previous owner (until she was two) including doggy swimming lessons! This problem started after we got the other dog, who is a much more confident dog that loves playing with other dogs (whereas as I said she prefers people). He is much faster and agile than her, and she couldn't ever keep up with him running with another younger dog, so she would barge in growling as if to stop the game. She is a very clever, cunning dog - if he is getting fuss from us she will immediately find one of his squeaky toys and squeak it nearby so that he rushes off to play, then she will take his place for cuddles. If she is running towards another dog and they growl or bark back she literally runs a mile. Its only if a dog stops and shows any fear that she will continue. When friends bring dogs they just ignore her and everything calms down within seconds. The same for dogs that are walked past every day and stop for a chat - they know her, they ignore her, and everything is fine. As I said, when we are camping at Bramham or Burghley where there are loads of other dogs on the site, she doesn't do anything. Last year we were next to a caravan full of yappy Yorkies that barked at our dogs every time they saw them and she didn't react at all. I really think its a mixture of territory and jealousy.

I've spoken to a neighbour today who has a new dog, and we are going to walk them together next week a few times. I'm also going to take her down nearer the village on her own at times when lots of people walk their dogs. Trouble is, I really don't think there will be any issue when she is away from here. And yes, we will have to keep her in our field that she can't get out of even if its hock deep in mud!
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Even if you do not think she is protecting you, then it may be that she is protecting herself/her boundaries, cowardly dogs can still puff themselves up and rush ahead if they think it will make what worries them, go away. Or just defending her territory/boundaries. Insecure dogs can still act this way....I bark, I growl, things go away and retreat.

With regard to the smacking thing, you allowed her to ignore you four times then smacked her, so next time, tell her sit, then physically put her in a sit, guiding her into it with the lead or with your hand, rather than sit (ignore), sit (ignore), sit (ignore), sit (ignore), smack.

The latter paragraph sounds like a positive way forward :) if she is the one who has the issue, taking her into the field alone our out will be much better as you won't have to worry about managing the other dog with only one pair of hands.
 
Cowardly dogs have three choices - fight, flight or freeze. She obviously chooses fight. You could train one of the alternatives to give her another way of dealing, (teach a down, and ENFORCE it, or a send away towards a target away from the threat) and if you could accustom her to using a muzzle, that will remove the fight option even more. It will also tell visiting dog walkers that she needs one, so to avoid her.
 
I was pushing on her to sit from the second time I asked her, not waiting for her to do it. She is a well trained dog that knows most commands, she was just plainignoring me that time, just like she was when I asked her to come back the day before. Its just difficult because she will do exactly what you ask her when alone, she just changes when other dogs come past, so I'm a bit stumped as to how to progress. Hopefully if I can walk her more regularly with dogs she doesn't know we can build it up. Ironically the other dog, who was a nightmare at first, has now become a million times better and she has got gradually worse.

I don't think for a moment that she would bite another dog, I just think that a muzzle may help as she is a tall lab and heavy type, so a big powerful dog, and other dog owners are a bit worried (IMO) when she is barking and growling.

Will let you know how we go on! Thanks everyone.
 
One thing I generally advise is if your dog is a bit antsy about others (whether through fear, grumpiness, playfulness, whatever) it is bestter to keep them moving than to ask them to stop and sit whilst the other dog approaches. It just helps to keep the tension from ramping up ('They're getting closer... closer... closer... TOO MUCH!' is often the reaction!).

So in your case you could try recalling her and get her to do some heelwork perhaps, so she is moving and focussing on you, not asking her to sit and be controlled whilst watching the interloper, which could be quite challenging for her. You can always work up to sitting still as she hopefully gets more comfortable with other dogs.
 
Yes I can accept that Spudlet, and will try. Half of it with the sitting is that while all the fields are so wet and slippery, a 5 stone lab and a 3 stone lab can be a lot to hold and stay upright if pulling towards other dogs. But yes, perhaps I should have kept them walking but at the top of the field. Part of them wanted them to meet the other dog and get over the "new dog" thing, so that they would be ok in future, as this dog only lives across the valley and comes past regularly.

We will see what happens when we walk out with my friend's new dog that they've not met yet.

I am taking what everyone is saying onboard and processing it!
 
What collar and lead combo are you using? While your friends dogs are there you could proof sits and recalls with distraction (if they only work without distraction, then you need to get them drilled in a bit more, even the best of the best have to go back over commands every once in a while!) and perhaps borrow them to try it in the field also if that is the main problem area.

I would def leave the younger dog at home while you are proofing this and then introduce him later.

If she is at all foody, don't feed her beforehand and use some or all of her daily allowance to encourage her to pay you attention, when she is listening and paying attention to you and doing what you say, feed her.
 
Honey08 said:
Yes I can accept that Spudlet, and will try. Half of it with the sitting is that while all the fields are so wet and slippery, a 5 stone lab and a 3 stone lab can be a lot to hold and stay upright if pulling towards other dogs. But yes, perhaps I should have kept them walking but at the top of the field. Part of them wanted them to meet the other dog and get over the "new dog" thing, so that they would be ok in future, as this dog only lives across the valley and comes past regularly.

We will see what happens when we walk out with my friend's new dog that they've not met yet.

I am taking what everyone is saying onboard and processing it!
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Well easy to be wise with hindsight and it certainly wasn't a criticism of you. :)

Agree with CC, one at a time is probably a good idea. If you are really struggling you can always try a headcollar - although of course only on a short lead, not a long line (I'm sure you wouldn't be daft enough to do this but after all this is a public forum and I have seen headcollars attached to flexi-leads before... yeeesh!).
 
Since man, presumably in stone-age time, took dogs in, so they were intended, primarily for hunting but also for guarding purposes. That was then, and it's also as now. Those dogs which demonstrate their guarding instincts have an inbuilt flightpath, and to try to correct them, at anything beyond their late-puppy——early-adult stage, is futile, generally.

As you only make use of the land in question, and you don't actually own it, then following on from the "fencing" suggestions, I suspect that the owners may have something to say!

You'll either have to live with the way that your dogs are, or keep them within your own property, or acquire the knack of dropping on to them, and just as they're thinking about their next step. It's do-able, but not easy!

Alec.
 
Its just interesting that this has only started over the last two years (at first only now and again, but getting irritatingly frequent now) and after we got the second dog. Prior to that she hasn't shown any sign of this. I do think it could well be trained out of her. She is a clever dog that learns things quickly even now..

As for the field, no we can't fence that footpath off as its not our land! We hope to be able to buy it in the next few years - the 90 yr old farmer doesn't want to sell it but we can have it when he dies! His daughter knows! We may well fence off the footpath then. At the moment we use it as it is on a slope and so much dryer than our boggy clay fields. My dad lets the dogs out when I'm away on work trips, so its especially useful for him - don't even know if he has wellies.

Both dogs are in regular collars and short leads usually. The male goes better if he has a harness on rather than the lead on his collar. The big dog came with a halter (we got her aged 2 from people in the city with a young baby who couldn't manage her), but I have never used it. TBH we never needed to, she was so easy at first. Whenever I see dogs with the halters on they are always practically taking the dog's eyes out, so I am not really a fan of them. When there are no other dogs about they both trot along at heal and return easily when off (most of the time!). The only other major distraction that makes her difficult is water.

Hubby thinks she's just turning into a grumpy old lady dog. She has become more growly in general when you play with her or tickle her, although its usually a grumbly growl with a very waggy tail.

Yes CC, that's my plan at the moment. Get my friend to meet us in the field, leave the smaller male in the house and spend ten minutes or so walking her round and asking her to sit etc while the other dog is there, praising if it works, then letting them meet without the ultra playful male around, then letting the male out and all going off on a walk!
 
You have to learn to use and accept the tools that will help you to control her during these periods, and more than half of dealing with the issue that is ( lead aggression/frustration) is..... (sorry)!... "owner handling skills" (this will include the wrong tools for the job) and not allowing the dog to learn what is acceptable and what is NOT in the way you communicate, via your voice and down the lead!
This is one of the most problematic issues I have to deal with in regard to dog behaviour and it's workable with any dog (certainly to the point of good control) I can tell you that much. I would advise you get a trainer out to demonstrate a good handling technique with you and supervise your own handling. I would also go with a halti if you are struggling with the strength of the dog in this situation.
 
Ps you will often see this behaviour manifest upon the arrival of a second dog which creates a little pack, you will find one dog will more commonly act as pack protector and take the roll of warning others off whilst generally the 2nd remains submissive and approachable.
 
Little Update..

I've been doing a lot more recall and games with them both in "that field" since this episode. We've not really met any other dogs.

Today my friend came over with her new dog. I left the male dog in the house and took the grumpy female in the field just before she arrived, walking her round on the lead, making her sit, walking on again etc. She did bark when she saw the other dog, but came back to heal and was distracted by a treat. I walked her down the field towards the other dog in a slalom, so going towards, turning away, going towards, turning away etc. She was pretty good. Then we met the other dog and despite grumbling at him she didn't bark and sat while I spoke to my friend. The other dog was loose and kept coming over to her, but she grumbled occasionally but that's all. I then got the other dog out, who was also (unusually) a bit growly for the first minute, but soon was racing around playing with the other dog, who is a playful athletic dog like he is. I kept the bitch on the lead for the first field, with the two dogs loose. She walked to heal fine. Then in the next field I let her off and she was fine, running around with the other two (but as usual not really interacting with them, just sniffing about doing her own thing while they played).

We met a lady with two other dogs halfway round the walk, who warned us that her dogs were aggressive. Both of her dogs were growling and barking as we went past. My bitch was good as gold, just "ruffed" once at them, but kept to heal and kept walking when told. Both my other dog and friend's dog were more bothered by the other aggressive dogs than she were.

Other than the first time she saw the other dog in the field next to our house she didn't show the slightest bit of aggression on the 90 minute walk and was off the lead with the new dog most of the time. So I guess it is mostly territorial?

ps, Cayla generally I don't struggle that much with getting them back on the lead generally, its just we are in the Pennines, so the fields are not flat by any means, and its soaking wet ground at the moment - I can barely stay on my feet when they aren't on the lead..
 
Thanks. We've been out to day again and she hasn't put a foot wrong. The two boys were a bit argy bargy with one another at one point, she has had her halo on.
 
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