advice on breeding?

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SarahRicoh

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Hi all,
Not sure if this is in right section so sorry if not...

Basically i have fallen in love with the rottweiler breed and after watching a well known breeder(diff breed) breed from.dogs that shouldnt be bred from it got me thinking about breeding as a business.

I want my own dog business and id like to dog grooming and breeding. Obviously i want to do it partly for money but mainly just because id love to promote good breeding and encourage well bred rotties!

My dogs would be shown,trained and have all the relevant health tests and everything would be done to the best of my ability.

My questions are simply how to get it started? Would i have to start with one bitch, use a stud then keep a puppy from the litter and grow like this or are there other ways? Do breeders that have older stock for sale let you breed from them? Do i need a license? And most importantly is there a market for rotties? I live in gloucestershire incase that makes a difference?

Sorry for the essay!! Thankyou :)
 
You are not going to make any money being a good breeder. You will be lucky to break even.

Get to plenty of shows and hook up with some other breeders and get yourself a breed mentor.
 
Why do you think i wont make money? My boss breeds and his puppies cost £750 each. Say average six pups. Thats a lot of money for one litter. Monus food,injections etc. Surely theres still a profit?
Not arguing just wanting to understand everything. Some people have said theres no money in it/others say complete opposite? :s

unfortunately for me i could use my boss and go to shows,learn.more etc but he deals in a very different breed to rotties and i wouldnt like to ask...
 
Imagine how much money is put into showing just a single dog. Entry fee's traveling to show (not all of which will be in your country) hotel fees, handler's fees.
Add on health tests which can run into the hundreds per test per dog.

I have a friend who just bred her first litter of finnish spitz with the help of her mentor and she has put about 9-10k into her girl alone.

I know of no decent breeders who make more than pocket change if anything at all.
 
SarahRicoh said:
Why do you think i wont make money? My boss breeds and his puppies cost £750 each. Say average six pups. Thats a lot of money for one litter. Monus food,injections etc. Surely theres still a profit?
Not arguing just wanting to understand everything. Some people have said theres no money in it/others say complete opposite? :s

unfortunately for me i could use my boss and go to shows,learn.more etc but he deals in a very different breed to rotties and i wouldnt like to ask...
Click to expand...

Take this case that is from one rare litter. By that I mean he might make money on this litter but that is one payday at most every year from this bitch (and you wouldn't really be looking to have a litter every time she comes into season). The bitch is only allowed 4 (think the KC recently changed it from 6) litters (and quite honestly you really wouldn't want her to have anymore than that). So you have to consider the cost of buying, keeping (inc vets), shows etc. to only have at most 4 litters from one bitch with no idea how many puppies she would have or if there could be complications that would require a vet (god forbid). There are exceptions but they're rare and have a reputation gained from years of showing and breeding brilliant dogs. Generally breeding is done for a love of the breed not with the aim of making much money out of it, because very few will succeed. Obviousely there are the likes of the puppy fars who make money out of bad breeding so I, like you, am only considering good breeding here. I await correction if my views are wrong here which they may well be. :-)
 
Breeding dogs isn't financially viable unless you do it on a large scale and go for quantity over quality (kind of the opposite of what you want to do :)). A good starting point is to list the costs involved in keeping one or two breeding bitches, in terms of every day feed, insurance, vacs/worms etc. Then add in the cost of showing/training for working titles to prove the breeding worth of your stock (travel, entry fees, membership of clubs etc etc). Then consider the costs of looking after a pregnant bitch, and possible complications during whelping. Add in the cost of raising a litter.

By now you should have a fairly large figure. Subtract from that the sale price of the puppies. Take into account KC limits on the number of litters a bitch can have. If you have any money left over I'd be stunned, and perhaps suggest you've left out some costs somewhere.

If you went freelance/self employed as a dog walker/pet sitter and perhaps took the pet dog trainer quals (apdt) you could possibly combine the lot to earn an income working just with dogs. You would of course need a business plan, as with any other business, as well as shed loads of experience with all kinds of dog on top of any industry quals such as the apdt.

When it comes to promoting responsible breeding, the best promotion is education (IMO).
 
Regard it as a way of saving,all your money ,time and effort sometimes pays you back a portion of it with puppy sales.BUT that would not include your paid time ....Heavens no! If you do grooming well you can pay your outgoings out of that,but getting started is tough and it is very hard work..not paid nearly well enough in my opinion.
All us dog breeders do seem to live long lives..allbeit struggling along with crook backs and buggered knees. Stay well away from it if your aim is to make money AND breed properly.
 
As its sounds as if you're serious about promoting good breeding (which is great) then keep that as a hobby. Keep it as a passion - do your homework, get a mentor, go to shows or to places where Rotties are working. Go to pet trade shows with rescues and promote them as a breed because you love them. But as everyone said, don't expect that it's going to make you money. Good breeders tend to not have large numbers of litters per year because it's pay day. They do it because they're trying to promote their lines which after generations have become something to be proud of because they've earned titles. :)

However, I do know people who work as groomers and do breeding on the side (again, more as a hobby - a secondary hobby to showing usually). Grooming is back breaking work and takes years to establish a clientele which is sound enough to earn a living. In this current economy it's nearly impossible to get started and keep going. It's very expensive to start up and go for training (which is a MUST). I agree with the business plan needing to be done. Go on to some of the grooming forums out there and ask the questions (chances are tho, depending on which one you visit, it'll end up being me that answers the questions! LOL)
 
If you breed properly (all health tests, etc) then you won't make money. I've bred 1 litter, I spent 2100 pounds and got 900 back and I kept 1 puppy! I can break it all down for you if you like. Also, it isn't just put 2 dogs together and get cute puppies that the mum raises so you can sell them and make money! There's lots of planning findin the right stud dog, then when the puppies are due and the 1st couple of weeks they can't be left (24/7), then when they get older there's lots of cleaning (washing machine constantly on the go) and running around after puppies.
 
Thankyou all :) so if i keep breeding as a hobby? Would grooming not be a viable business option?
Also, youd pay to look after the bitch anyway as itd be my pet (inc vacc/worming) so isnt the only thing extra the health tests,shows,stud fee? Im new to this so sorry if iv got it vry wrong
 
Don't forget, as a good breeder you will need to undertake to take back any dog you sell if the new owners can't cope, at any stage in that dog's life.

Breeding should be done to produce that one amazing working dog, or that one perfect show dog specimen - not to make a bit of easy cash. Sorry.
 
You definitely won't make any money!!!!! You may be very lucky and sell 1 litter for the money you want but you maybe stuck with an entire litter for whatever reason the next time - can you afford or have the space for possibly 10 rotties??!!!!! Have you actually looked at how many rottweiler pups are on all these freeads, epupz etc - there are tons - look in rescues - tons!!
Large breeds are really not very popular at the moment even top breeders are not breeding at the moment as there is no market for them, big dogs will always be the first to get dumped in a recession, and with the recent rotties attacking kids in the news hasn't helped their popularity, plus the finding homes part/advertising is a nightmare!!!

I bred a litter of ridgebacks 4yrs ago - cost me a bomb before I even started - purchase of the bitch then speaking to a good few breeders to find out if she was good enough, health tests/stud fee/travel to stud dog twice at the other end of the country. Then there was whelping box, kit, bedding, toys, the food was costing about £50 every 3 days as my bitch had 10 pups and they were on James Wellbeloved with goats milk, advertising, KC registration, my time never even came into it plus my washing machine died from the 3 bedding and toy washes a day!! Vet checks, the runt of the litter was born with a weird defect - her windpipe was too small and she had to be put down at 14wks as the drugs she was on stopped working, vaccinations, and microchips for those that didn't sell at 8 weeks, and after 8 weeks people expect to pay a lower price, the last of mine left at 14wks, and I kept 3 from the litter purely as pets. Mine are all neutered now I'd never do it again but it was good fun, but finding suitable homes was just a nightmare - it was however a very expensive way of getting a puppy, I did it as a hobby though not to make a fast buck!!!

I was lucky that the actual birth was fine and my bitch fed them for 3 weeks then I had to wean them, but having worked in a vets for years I saw bitches having to have c-sections, abandoning their litter leaving the owners to bottle feed every 2hrs for weeks, puppies getting stuck especially with the larger headed breeds like rotties, bullmastiffs etc, bitches not making it through c-sections leaving a litter of pups, so you need to set aside at least £2000 just incase of a c-section.
And as others have said you need to be able to keep all you don't sell or those who need a home later in life for whatever reason - have you seen the price of even top rottie pups - you wouldn't even cover the basic feed costs, unless you feed them crap and cut corners everywhere!!! Plus if you keep a pup from a litter for showing and potential breeding and it doesn't turn out as you wanted then you have to start again and keep that dog as a pet - before you know it you could be flooded with them!
So no - breeding animals is not a way to make money unless you puppy farm and cut every corner you can to maximise profit!!! - breeding is a hobby plain and simple!!!

As to making money with grooming - you need to do your research in your area - there are tons of pet groomers out there so really look into it and see if your area can support another and do a course or work for an existing groomer to get ideas and a feel for the business - pet owners are more likely going to take you seriously if you have qualifications/show experience etc - you have to know all the different cuts for each breed, and have very good insurance!!!!
 
No offence but you seem to have a very simplistic view of how easy and straightforward breeding is. Done properly, it's not.

I know people who have driven across Europe for a mating which was obviously expensive, and the bitch missed. Tough titty, that's life.
The litter before that, despite having parents with low hip scores, two of the pups in the litter turned out to have hips off the scale and were PTS.
The litter before that, the bitch had three puppies, one of which was a long coat and therefore could not be shown.

Or like us, everything done right, all health tests, show results, working qualifications, and one big dead puppy gets stuck and the whole litter dies.

I know a couple who thought, this will be as easy as bish, bash, bosh, (because they saw someone else getting very successful - well, he had spent 30 years getting it right)
Went out and paid top dollar to import a German bitch in whelp to the top dog in the world in 2010.
There was no demand and no waiting list, they just assumed everyone would want one.
The prices dropped from £2000 to £1100 to £750 and despite all those tests and all those show results, I would not take one of those dogs home with me, they are nothing special at all in terms of looks or temperament and they have no work ethic.
NOTHING in dog breeding is guaranteed.

Breeding dogs should not be a business/industry/money maker, you'd be no different from the people selling x-breeds off Gumtree or Preloved IMO.
The breeders I respect breed for something special and the rest are sold as pets, workers, show dogs, whatever.

Also the financial climate - people cannot afford to keep the dogs they have in a lot of cases.

The guy I bought my older dog off has been breeding for 40 years. He is a millionaire.
But he has never made a penny out of his dogs.
 
Okay, you ask about grooming, and whether you can earn from that. I had already written this response out once, and my computer crashed and lost the lot. Normally I would just say to heck with it and leave it for someone else to answer. But this is something I'm really passionate about as I'm very passionate about the grooming industry.

Can you make a living?

Yes. But it's not cheap to start!

First, ask yourself, do you want to be a good groomer, with qualifications and training...or are you happy to be a cowboy?

Even if you want to be a cowboy, your outlay is going to be expensive. You'll need clippers...Argos do not sell clippers which are powerful enough to do the job right on a professional basis. So even the lower end of professional range of clipper will set you back about £100. You'll need blades of various sizes (about 5 sizes to start).

You'll need a surface in which to work. A small table that folds up will set you back another £100 or so. You'll need some scissors..so even cheapie scissors will cost anywhere from a tenner to £35 or so. And that's it! But don't expect to stay in business terribly long...

Okay, you want to do it right?

Training will set you back about £2k or more. This won't guarantee you will be a good groomer, but should at least give you the very basics of safety, handling, and how to clip, thin, strip, and trim. It should teach you the basics of a good bath, how to trim nails, when to pluck ears and when to clip them. It will teach you the basic lines of many breeds.

Next, you will need your equipment. I know some suppliers that sell a basic salon starter package for about £900 which includes a table, dryer, low end clipper, low end scissors, maybe some shampoo and clipper blades thrown in. But they tend to only have one set of clippers, one set of blades as the deal - so these things should be doubled up so that when something breaks down you have a back up. Without, you could end up having to cancel whole days or weeks worth of work. This never happens during a quiet spell...sods law states it must only ever happen during the busiest of weeks when you are finally maybe going to break even if you can do all the dogs you've got booked! :(

So that's what - nearly £3k and where are we working from? Home garden shed? Salon? Mobile?

A fully kitted out shop tends to cost a bit more (probably more like £5k once you've doubled up your dryers and clippers and added in some cages, more shampoo, towels, and the rest of your small tools, bath tub of course)

Then there's insurance (mine cost me about £600 annually for shop insurance and business cover). Rent? Okay, none if you're working from home (but make sure you've got planning permission! Harder to get to work from home than it is from a shop). That also costs money and time to apply.

Advertising, marketing and so on -

Okay, all told, I've been in business for nearly a decade. I've got a client base which is good enough that I can share it with a second person. However it cost me a fortune to set up and I'm still paying down the debt for that. I make a decent enough living, but in today's money, I must clear about £2k per month to pay the shop overheads before I take a penny for me. With an average grooming charge of £35, it means I must groom about 60 dogs per month before I take a wage. That's about 3 dogs per day, which is easily do able when you've got experience. Most new groomers struggle to finish bathing, drying, clipping, styling a dog in three hours which on an average day is 2 dogs per day. And even if they've got the speed, they often don't have the clients coming to them just cos they've hung up a sign in the front window. I've a lady who rents a table from me that after three years of working with me she's still struggling to fill her books, particularly in the quieter months (Sept, Oct, Nov, Jan, Feb! That's nearly half the year!) If I didn't pass overflow to her she'd have been out of business ages ago.

I know many groomers from the grooming forums that are saying they're packing it in...most are newer groomers but one in particular is a 20 year veteran with a city & guilds qualification! Times are tough!

Currently, I would not say that after ten years I'm making money - I'm holding my head above water in the current economy. Yes, my shop expenses are high (though I'm sharing space to help economise, and I'm cutting expenses where I can without cutting corners). I'm the highest priced groomer in the area not out of snobbery or greed but out of sheer need! My collegue is barely making a living...definitely not making enough to support a hobby of any sort! And she'll often tell you she's too tired after a day of hard graft to take one up anyway....

Oh yeah, and the other thing is this: getting trained up and finding a job with a groomer might be the way to go - slightly cheaper and even better to find a groomer who is willing to train on the job. But those opportunities are like hens teeth. But it IS possible...
 
I recently asked about profit from breeding on another forum--- after they had finished having a go at me, got some really interesting responses. Basically if you do it properly, you run one pup on yourself (all health tests, scans, stud fees, campaigning said breeding dog, travel, whelping kit, vet, time off work, worming, feeding, KC registration, jabs etc) a litter can set you back £2000 at least, so you need a litter of 5, with people willing to pay £500 a pup to even break even.

if you are not going to do it properly then PLEASE just dont do it- way way to many unwanted dogs, and way way to many litters being born as it is!
 
Here's the breakdown of breeding the litter my bitch had, it doesn't include the cost of buying her, competing at agility to prove her or feeding her, etc (just the extra food she had while in pup, lactating) and it doesn't include the extra cost of having the washing machine on cleaning vetbed.

Health tests for bitch including travel (hip score, DNA test TNS, CEA, CL, eye test PRA, glaucoma) - £500
stud fee inc travel to and from stud dog a few times - £470
kennel name (affix) - £70
relaxin blood test - £20
scan - free (I work at a vet)
wormer for mum (from day 40 - 2 days post whelp) and pups (2, 5 & 8 weeks) - £80
puppy pen - £25
Welping box - free (made by the factory manager where my mum works)
Bits and bobs (thermometer, bottle, scissors, stethoscope, disinfectant, gloves, welpi, dopram-v) - £85
Extra food for bitch and puppy food - £100
TNS test puppies (because my bitch is a carrier, used clear stud dog) - £250
BAER hearing test for puppies inc travel - £150
eye test for puppies - £60
KC reg - £50
Puppies vacc - £120
Microchips - £40
Vetbed - £80

Total £2100

Sold 2 puppies for £450 each, kept 1 myself and gave 1 away = £900 (even if I'd have sold all 4 for £450 each, I'd have still been out of pocket £300). Also on top of that as I work at a vet, vet fees cheaper and whelping box usually costs about £200. You also need about £2000 to hand just in case you need an emergency c-section out of hours.

I've now hip scored the pup I kept, £50 for BVA, not paid for x-rays yet, but should be about £100, she is genetically clear by parentage for CEA and tested as a puppy a carrier for TNS, still need PRA eye test and gonioscopy test, then may think about breeding her in a couple of years time to keep a pup back for myself. And I've paid £20 to maintain my kennel name this year (and that will need to be paid every year).
 
I don't know anything about breeding.

After having one puppy - never again. I'll always have a rescue:)

Regarding grooming - my groomer reckons alot of people are opting for a mobile groomer rather than going to a parlour. Parlours are closing whereas mobile groomers are thriving.

Having just managed to elbow my way into their schedule, I would agree. I get my dogs done monthly now, whereas if I had to make it to a groomer's, it might be once a year. So the convenience makes for a more reliable client base and less overheads.

You could see if your area has a mobile grooming company and get a job for them to see if you like it. That way you can get training for free.
http://www.bugsie.co.uk/
 
Just to say all very interesting. I have no interest whatsoever in breeding, particularly as I have 3 staffies, all rescues, all spayed. My mother (obessive about anything female breeding) DID breed from her staffie bitch- but that was years ago before the breed had such a bad reputation. In her case it was nothing to do with money, purely her desire to increase the population. She also (in a small surrey village) had people after the puppies before they were born. The bitch had 5, one died with a cleft palate, bitch had to have a CC and my mother had actually got someone into help with the puppies when they were born.

As you have obviously fallen in love with the Rottie breed - have you thought about getting involved with the breed rescue? I have definately seen an increase in Rotties hitting the pounds now and that might be a better outlet for you. I do still help out from time to time with Staffie rescue and it is rewarding.

One day, I will look forward to going to a reputable staffie breeder and buying a staff that is the correct standard/tested etc. One day....
 
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