Advice on buying foal/yearling

But the stud books will tend to only record successes - not failures? What I meant was whether there have been any studies where foals were judged on their perceived ability at, say, 8 weeks, and then ALL judged on their ridden abilities as adults (and also perhaps at various stages in between) to see if there was a good correlation between the two. I'm fairly sure that (some time ago) we had a student look at correlation between placings in the young event horse classes and future eventing success, and I'm also fairly sure that there was no correlation, or perhaps even a negative one!
 
I do put quite a lot of emphasis on breeding mainly because I have bred a few litters of puppies over the years and I have seen time and again that the same bitches breed puppies with similar temperaments and 'abilities' (small dogs climbing over fences springs to mind!!) and I can't see why horses would be any different.

My friend has bred 6 or 7 foals from the same mare, three different sires, who all do a distinctive head toss when they get worked up when ridden.

So if I want a jumper and buy a horse from parents who are jumpers and the bloodlines tell me that there have been good jumpers for 5 generations, the chances of me NOT having a horse that jumps is pretty low!!
 
soloequestrian said:
But the stud books will tend to only record successes - not failures? What I meant was whether there have been any studies where foals were judged on their perceived ability at, say, 8 weeks, and then ALL judged on their ridden abilities as adults (and also perhaps at various stages in between) to see if there was a good correlation between the two. I'm fairly sure that (some time ago) we had a student look at correlation between placings in the young event horse classes and future eventing success, and I'm also fairly sure that there was no correlation, or perhaps even a negative one!
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There are far to many variables between horses to even try to bring that together. My point is any amount of breeding will not make up for more basic issues. When assessing foals for different purposes breeding is the last thing I ever look at, thats not to belittle it just that if the basics arent correct the breeding is irrelevant.From experience this is where foal buyers fall into the trap of getting over wrapped up in the breeding.
The best horse I ever bred was out of an unknown mare by an untried stallion that youngster won the Hickstead speed derby. Although the mare never had a bad foal the stallion never produced anything else of note! Nobody would have bought that foal for its breeding!
 
Okay, so assuming I let breeding take a back seat, what about actually judging a foal when it's in front of you... I found this, presumably this one would go for lots of money http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcQd4riwNuo, but would that be an ideal dressage foal? That high knee action seems very fashionable now, but is it likely to be healthy over a lifetime? If a horse is built more on TB lines, does that necessarily mean that it won't be able to collect (looking at videos of Dutch Gold, he didn't have anything like the knee action, but he did quite well). Also bearing in mind that I don't want to get to the Olympics.... what do I look for?
 
Ah, I see the disconnect. I'm not talking about breeding for 'best' I'm talking about assessing the collective knowledge about a horse's family to hedge my bets about the intangibles. For instance, if a family has high ridability scores and has produced a lot of horses that go for amateurs, I'm going to be more interested than if there is an Olympic champion close up but they have a rep for being nutters. Of course, if the actual foal is a fruit cake then it's moot. I've said repeatedly one should never buy a horse on paper but there are lines I would favour or avoid if I specifically wanted a good citizen.

As an example, someone on here bought a horse by a dressage sire who had the lowest jumping index of his year and some dire comments. Lo and behold, when they stated it over fences at 4 it turned out to be supremely untalented. Not really a surprise!

Anyway, I don't think most people have that sort of flexibility of choice. I would probably actively avoid anything 'highly bred' for the purpose at hand though.

The French study involved specific tests for the foals to do with moving away from pressure, approaching strange objects etc I really wish I could find it. Popdosh, do you find that your original observations of your foals are born out in their trainability and work ethic later? I'm trying to think as I've probably been around hundreds of foals but I tend not to notice them much until they're old enough to put a saddle on! That said, I've seen time and time again that a good mare can produce foal which improve on every stallion and there are a couple I think so highly of I'd probably accept any of their kids sight unseen!

Sorry to derail your thread OP. I would agree people so get caught up wanting this or that breeding and ignoring the individual. Hence 'fashionable breeding'. I would also say though, that I often see people fall in love with a foal for some specific reason - say they love its trot - and lose sight of the big picture
 
They pretty much come through as expected ,I do select Stallions that are known for their trainability and only have a mare if it is the right temperament as this is in 99% of cases past on to the foal as the mare teaches the foal manners etc.If you go for some of the fashionable stallions you can severely cut out a lot of your potential market. The foals will usually show something during its first few months that will point as to which discipline it we be suited to.
I am ashamed that I missed the potential of the foal that won at Hickstead,I could never understand why a friend was so keen to buy her,years later they let on that as we were having a cup of tea they had seen the foal jump a thistle in the paddock ,it can be the smallest thing !!!
 
I don't know much about welt hit II but, Weltmeyers can be hot tricky horses, and mixed with a TB it might make it a more pros ride. Saying that the damline is good for rideability & the dam has a greater influence.

The breeders will know their market though and steer you to the right horse if you are honest about ability & ambition.
 
Oscar said:
I don't know much about welt hit II but, Weltmeyers can be hot tricky horses, and mixed with a TB it might make it a more pros ride. Saying that the damline is good for rideability & the dam has a greater influence.

The breeders will know their market though and steer you to the right horse if you are honest about ability & ambition.
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This is true. Breeders want their foals to succeed at whatever level.and good ones will want them to go to SUITABLE homes.

Thanks, pd. There are just some mares that are gold but you're not to know for the first foal. Friends had a top show hunter out of a mare who also produced a winning racehorse, 2 approved stallions with a dressage bent, and a good eventer!

OP, I think you do have to go with your gut to some extent. Don't buy a horse ON its breeding but be aware of lines that consistently DON'T produce what you want. It also helps if you can find out about the mare and why the breeders have used her. It doesn't matter how good the stallion's ridability index is if the mare was too mental or fragile to ride.
 
soloequestrian said:
I'm answering myself now.... a superficial search would suggest that stride patterns don't change much between foal and adult, but jumping at six months is a fairly poor predictor of jumping ability as an adult.
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:nod: my old lady jumped like stink as a foal and never got past novice eventing as she hated showjumping (XC was fine, go figure!) She turned into a very good dressage horse competing Inter I and working GP.

OTOH Mum of the 18 month old is out of PC eventer, by a stallion that BSJA'd and evented. She used to jump the electric tape as a foal (and leave her frantic Mum!) and has a phenomenal jump as an adult - I've loose jumped her over 5 ft (I'm too chicken to ride over that) and she has jumped our 3'9" fence from a standstill on several occasions. She just happens to be a better than average dressage horse as well.
 
To the OP - I would say given what you want to do, buy what you like the look of! If you can visit a few recommended yards, where you know the breeders produce good all round foals, just visit and see if anything catches your eye. Look to see that they seem correct first of all, then assess their temperament - they should give you a feel pretty quickly.

I am an amateur when it comes to assessing foals, but I know what I like and seem to have a reasonable eye. I have had both of mine from 6 months old. G was born at the yard I was on at the time, but the Sire was just up the road, so we went to have a look and loved his temperament. Sky was from a breeder near Rochdale who we didn't know, but went to visit based on her photos and loved her. She looked so athletic and obviously had a spark without being silly and Mum was a nice mare, Dad had good lines, so we had her. Both of them have been fab - G has turned out to be very correct, handsome and true to his lineage (sports horse/eventing bred) so much so he qualified for HOYS, while Sky, as we expected, has amazing paces, is super balanced and is currently proving to be a fab jumper.

I have another baby coming at the end of this month. Same breeder as Sky and the last he will ever breed so we decided to go an look at the foal's BEF grading. I have added links to vids, one of trot, gallop and then the vet grading him - might be useful to you. We were impressed most of all with his temperament - he took everything in his stride and was easy to handle. Think he is going to be a little bit special. He is bred to jump, but have no doubt he will do everything I want including some showing, dressage and jumping. The breeder produced 3 - 4 foals each year in the past and the prices ranged from £3 - 7k ish, depending on lineage.

http://youtu.be/9IJwIsKPefY - gallop
http://youtu.be/dJimYtKECKk - trot
http://youtu.be/W_iU1QU0HzU - grading.

Overall, the watchwords are correctness and temperament - that would be my advice. So long as I like the dam and sire, then that is fine for me.
 
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So cute!
Right, I am going to visit two studs at the weekend. Is there anything in particular that I should do/ ask to see done? I'm pretty good at assessing adult horse temperament - just need to see them on the lunge - but have no idea how to go about it with a foal.
Also, another numpty question, do people have foals vetted? I suspect the only defect that might not be obvious would be a heart issue, but maybe I'm missing something?
 
Re: Vetting, not much to be done, but certainly they can sound the heart and wind, look at the limbs, check the mouth and look at the eyes too. Can't remember what else our vet did but just cover all the general bases. We won't be bothering with this one, as the vets looked him over closely at the grading and we were there.

As for temperament, I would just be wanting to see how it behaves in the box with his dam, how it behaves around humans including yourselves when you are introduced to it, and then see it outside moving with its dam. Again look to see how it reacts with the environment that it is in. I would be looking for something that is interested in you, and doesn't show much signs of worry over strangers, but isn't pushy.

I'm sure others will be along in a moment to answer you with more good advice than me!
 
Worth asking if the foal went through the futurity.
All of mine did except for the first, although she was reserve champion at her KWPN keuring.
My 3yo went as a foal and at 2yo, missed this year as I couldn't get time off.
The 18 month got a good first premium (8.38) as a foal, missed this year for the same reason as the 3yo. They are vetted at the futurity but do remember that the vetting is only really good for the day it is done on.
 
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