Advice on Loaner who Refuses to Pay?

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Paratus

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Hello all,

Old user, not been here for over 3 years, but hope I can still canvass for some advice...!

My wife and I put a horse out on loan back in August 2011, just before my job was moving me abroad for a while. We loaned him to a good friend of my wife's, with the agreement it'd be a loan with a view to buy. She rapidly said she wanted to buy him and we settled on £1500, with a payment of £200 per month.

She made 2 payments then pleaded poverty, and we eventually cut the full price to £1200, and agreed to take reduced payments if required.

My wife looked this week to see how far we had got, only to see that after that initial £500, we had never received another payment, in well over a year since we agreed they'd restart.

She contacted the loaner via Facebook to ask if everything was ok, and got a very rapid apologetic reply, saying she was sorry she took advantage of us being overseas and she'd resume the payments straight away. She emphasised that the horse was very happy and they were looking forward to competing after the summer.

30 minutes later, we received another message saying she'd spoken to her boyfriend and he'd agreed to pay the full outstanding £700 for her within 24 hours. We were pretty happy with that.

The next morning, we found the woman had deleted and blocked my wife from Facebook, and she had a message from the woman's mother for some reason (the woman in question is in her late 20s). The message from the mother stated that we were to stop "threatening" her daughter, and we had "no proof" that they owed anything, and we wouldn't get "another penny" from her, and she'd "expect to hear from our lawyer" if we wanted to take it further. She also said she'd contacted the livery yard he was at and claimed that "any attempt to collect him would be treated as theft" as "we put our names on the passport and you have no proof he's yours now." So they have stolen the horse on LWVTB without paying for him.

We've contacted a solicitor whose first comments were that a verbal contract is fine, and the admission of the debt via Facebook is entirely valid, and everything said on Facebook is admissible if it was used legally.

Does anyone have any experience or advice regarding this? We'd actually prefer to just take him back now, is that possible? He's on a livery yard, not one owned by the loaner.
 
Can't really offer any advice but just wishing you good luck in getting him back. Luckily you have the admission on facebook! Hopefully that will help your case!
 
When I bought my ponies the old owner had to sign the passport when the pony was sold

In absence of a signature only a signed receipt was accepted by the issuing agency

Its worth checking if everything is in order with your passport issuer just in case the loaner has forged anything which may help your case massively
 
I would print off the Facebook conversation, take it to the local police station and tell them you will going to collect your horse (your property). As you are likely to meet with resistance you would like a police escort.
The reason I suggest this is because the police once escorted a woman I know to collect her horse who had been sold whilst on loan. She took various paper work to prove ownership with her.
However are you able to do this if you live aboard ? And you might have to give the £500 back ?!
 
Good luck!
I would just like to confirm that verbal contract is completely fine - we went to court on a verbal contract, and won. Also, bear in mind that the passport is no indication of ownership. Possession is nine tenths of the law, and theft would not come into this scenario at all. The police would treat the whole thing as a civil dispute/dispute over ownership, and advise you both to seek the advice of a solicitor. So, if he were mine, I'd do everything in my power to remove him from the yard, and put him somewhere quiet, discreet and secure. ;)
 
Well as it is entirely a civil dispute (rather than a criminal matter), if you took the horse back and they phoned the police then the police wouldn't treat it as theft and they would have to commence civil proceedings if they believed that they had a rightful claim to the horse. If you do that though I would leave behind the money they have paid to you (as a cheque) and a receipt for the refund (which you keep a copy of). They would really struggle to prove they hadn't agreed to a refund. Also, the name on the passport is NOT proof of ownership, any more than the name on a car's logbook is.

S***ty situation - good luck :)
 
I'd speak to the BHS legal helpline. Also I'd get in contact with old vets, YO and farriers who will be able to vouch you owned him and on what basis he had left you (if they were made aware at the time)
 
i would phone up the county court and ask for advice. the court clerk should be able to advise you if the small claim court would take the case. if so, i would gather (print off) all the evidence and write to the defaulter (the lady who refuses to pay) telling her you intend to take her to court...
 
Court clerks can't give advice.

The matter would fall into the small claims track though as the value is less than £10k. Whether it would be economic to pursue is another matter though.
 
Kat said:
Court clerks can't give advice.

The matter would fall into the small claims track though as the value is less than £10k. Whether it would be economic to pursue is another matter though.
Click to expand...

hmmmmmm...i was told to phone and ask for advice...
 
https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/overview

The process is relatively straightforward, but getting your money is not. Three years on, and I am still trying, despite getting a full judgement in my favour :(

Decide if you want the horse back, which would give you the opportunity to resell it elsewhere. If that is the case, go and get it, and, as someone else said, leave a cheque for the money she has paid you. If she wants to take you to court, let her - let her pay, and let her do the work. You have more chance of getting your money if you retrieve your horse and sell it again, than if you take her through small claims :(

I completely understand 'principle', though - that is why I am still trying to get what is owed to me.
 
good lord, how can they put their names on the passport without your authority as owners? I would be taking that up with the PIO too!
 
I have received advice before that when you have agreed a sale, and a part payment has been made, ownership transfers and at that point it's debt collection and you cannot just take your horse back.

The horse hasn't been stolen, its a bad debt.

Doesn't feel right though does it? Would hate OP to end up the one at the end of a court case! Weirder things have happened in our legal system :o
 
Agreed. This is debt recovery not a stolen horse. If you did 'take' it you'd probably find the police would be far more interested in your 'theft' than what you consider to be theirs!
 
Gleeful Imp said:
I have received advice before that when you have agreed a sale, and a part payment has been made, ownership transfers and at that point it's debt collection and you cannot just take your horse back.

The horse hasn't been stolen, its a bad debt.

Doesn't feel right though does it? Would hate OP to end up the one at the end of a court case! Weirder things have happened in our legal system :o
Click to expand...

If they are refusing to pay anymore money isn't the OP within their rights to take the horse back? Companies would use baliffs to recover property when there is a bad debt so isn't this the same?
 
No because the OP isn't a regulated baliff.... Debt recovery action must be taken by the court - not the individual. That's like saying 'the courts would lock this thief up, so I'll trap him in my cellar' :)
 
I'd just turn up and take the horse, leave them a £500 cheque and drive away into the sunset ;)
I'd deal with the police/their lawyers if and when they turned up (which I very much doubt they would).
I don't suffer fools.

The only difficult thing I see is getting the horse - you will need to find out when the yard is likely to be quiet, so as to avoid making a scene. Also, make sure you don't take anything belonging to the loaner, even a headcollar.

This may not be the legal advice you'd get, but it's what I'd do. But then I doubt she would have stolen from me in the first place, I don't mean to offend but you should have been on their case the day the first failed payment happened, it doesn't help to let these things go on for months unnoticed.
 
P.dale. Exactly what I would do too (legal implications aside). Are they likely to pursue through the courts? Doubt it very much, they're not the type to settle a £700 debt, so I hardly think they'd run the risk of incurring higher costs.
 
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