Advice on offering livery

Nightmare before Christmas

Nightmare before Christmas

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I have own small yard that is currently personal with one friends horse there with a contribution towards hay ect.

I graduate soon and want the yard to generate some cash. I plan to expand but cannot yet due to finances.

I have 4 wooden, newish stables, a large hay barn/feed room, massive container (covered by a barn) tack room, new 20x40 menage with martin collins surface and full set of jump for joy fences with water tray. The menage will be flood lit by the winter and I should have a hot shower system installed.

I only have 3.5 acres which is an issue. My own horse only has a few hours out a few times a week and the fields are split into rotated paddocks. We never have a shortage of grass in the summer but grazing is restricted in the winter months.

Hacking is good with a large local venue within hacking distance.

I am in staffordshire.

So what would you do? Do I have 2 full liveries and keep my diy but put livery up? My DIY is likely to leave if livery goes up (but I would like to start making a profit so I need to really) so do I get three full liveries? I would focus on competition type people I think and they would need to understand that grazing isnt always the best in the winter months. Or I could have two full liveries and one stable to have a breaker/schooling livery in?

We are slowly expanding, looking into buying the large field next door and putting 10 brick stables up with wash box ect but this is very much down the line!!!

I guess bonus of my place is its a small yard with lots of freedom to get on with doing what you like with no arena bookings ect!

Any advise? Things I need to consider? Suggestions of how I can do it better? Prices? ect
 
You need to stop the DIY, there is no profit in it, it takes up a stable and uses valuable grazing, hard if they are a friend but if you need to make money out of the facilities there is no option.
I would then do as you already suggest 2 full long term liveries to bring in guaranteed income and use the spare box for short term breaking or schooling, this may then build up to become your best option for a real profit longer term.
 
be positive said:
You need to stop the DIY, there is no profit in it, it takes up a stable and uses valuable grazing, hard if they are a friend but if you need to make money out of the facilities there is no option.
I would then do as you already suggest 2 full long term liveries to bring in guaranteed income and use the spare box for short term breaking or schooling, this may then build up to become your best option for a real profit longer term.
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Thanks! She is a very good friend of mine but will understand I think. I want to expand but need an income. I will be working elsewhere too but if the yard can generate cash then its a massive bonus!!
 
If you are going to be working elsewhere you may be better off offering part livery, full liveries may expect you to be there at their beck and call more than you really want, you would need to be very clear what you offer and what hours you will be on the yard, I sometimes get a call to ask for a horse to be brought in so the owner can fit in a quick ride during lunch breaks, not easy if I was working off the yard.
A clear contract is probably the way to go so there can be no confusion of terms.
 
be positive said:
If you are going to be working elsewhere you may be better off offering part livery, full liveries may expect you to be there at their beck and call more than you really want, you would need to be very clear what you offer and what hours you will be on the yard, I sometimes get a call to ask for a horse to be brought in so the owner can fit in a quick ride during lunch breaks, not easy if I was working off the yard.
A clear contract is probably the way to go so there can be no confusion of terms.
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Yes I will have a clear contract. Full livery around me is mucking out, fetching in, hays, feeding, and general jobs. No riding.

I will be working at a yard down the road riding and also freelance teaching. The only issues I have is if I go to stay away shows but I plan these in advance so I could sort that. I have a couple people lined up already and they are people I have known for years so should be easy to work with - in theory!!!
 
Nightmare before Christmas said:
Yes I will have a clear contract. Full livery around me is mucking out, fetching in, hays, feeding, and general jobs. No riding.
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That's only part or assisted livery around here.

Full livery is always absolutely everything including riding, tack cleaning and preparing (including clipping) for shows, hunting or competitions if the owner can't manage it. The only extra costs to them would be worming and farrier/vet so be very careful what you call it and what it includes; don't ever assume everyone knows what you mean.
 
Maesfen said:
That's only part or assisted livery around here.

Full livery is always absolutely everything including riding, tack cleaning and preparing (including clipping) for shows, hunting or competitions if the owner can't manage it. The only extra costs to them would be worming and farrier/vet so be very careful what you call it and what it includes; don't ever assume everyone knows what you mean.
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wow that would be hunting or competition ridden livery round here!

The people interested will know what I mean but I will be clear to avoid confusion! Thank you :)

I wont have to advertise luckily as ive had demand from day 1! Hence I would really like to expand!
 
I'd go for full livery but regarding your friend's horse, that's a personal decision. However, on a small yard, its probably better for the horses to have the same routine and if your friend wants to turn out/feed at different times, it could be unsettling for her own horse.

The problem with offering a full livery service is that usually the owners need the YO to be around during the day for emergency vet visits or for the farrier to replace a lost shoe, or just to be around for an unwell horse.

Don't under estimate the importance to owners that the reassurance of a presence on the yard gives. It doesn't bother everyone, but let clients know so they can work out if its doable around their work commitments.

Good luck, it sounds lovely.
 
SIGNED CONTRACTS! However well you know people, they will take advantage and since you are the owner of the property you would need to make sure that, running as a business, you are OK with tax man and insurance. I think the BHS can help on the valid legal side of the wording on a contract. The things that you don't supply need to be as clearly stated as those that you do supply. Will you make a charge for storage of their hay/ horse boxes for example? You don't want to end up with your yard looking like a pigsty! Get references from or better still, visit the previous yard owners where your prospective clients have been before. Consider the worst that can happen and plan ahead! Sorry to sound down on your idea but I have been left with dirty unmucked out stables, my own goods missing, broken fencing, damaged stables, and money owing , and threatened when I mentioned it, by so called friends who were liveries!
 
HappyHooves said:
SIGNED CONTRACTS! However well you know people, they will take advantage and since you are the owner of the property you would need to make sure that, running as a business, you are OK with tax man and insurance. I think the BHS can help on the valid legal side of the wording on a contract. The things that you don't supply need to be as clearly stated as those that you do supply. Will you make a charge for storage of their hay/ horse boxes for example? You don't want to end up with your yard looking like a pigsty! Get references from or better still, visit the previous yard owners where your prospective clients have been before. Consider the worst that can happen and plan ahead! Sorry to sound down on your idea but I have been left with dirty unmucked out stables, my own goods missing, broken fencing, damaged stables, and money owing , and threatened when I mentioned it, by so called friends who were liveries!
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I had these issues with a temp livery over christmas! My dad is going to help as he is good with the legal and business side of things.

I am at a loss of what to charge!?
 
If i was paying full livery I would expect some staff or owner to be available at all times during day. What if a livery couldn't get out of work and needed someone to talk to farrier or meet vet?
 
Can't you ask around in your area what others charge? It tends to be quite regional so what I have here wont help you I'm afraid. I know that no two yards are the same but it sounds as if you have a lot to offer. A few phone calls pretending you're looking for livery space will yield up the info you need I think!
 
HappyHooves said:
Can't you ask around in your area what others charge? It tends to be quite regional so what I have here wont help you I'm afraid. I know that no two yards are the same but it sounds as if you have a lot to offer. A few phone calls pretending you're looking for livery space will yield up the info you need I think!
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Yes I know some yards offering what I do are anywhere between 70 and 130!

DIY is around 40

Grass is around 25


Schooling livery is 120 +
 
I would defo go for full livery. When I was running a yard we only offered full/part, it's a much easier way to ensure profit. My hesitation would be your grazing. Is there anyway you can secure extra land? To be honest if I came to view your yard I would be put off by the lack of acreage. I'm not trying to be critical, just trying to think what would entice people in and then make them stay! One of the reasons I chose my current yard is because they have such good grazing.
 
Nightmare before Christmas said:
Can be there if I know dates and times booked :)
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just playing devils advocate here. I started a business myself so I know it's handy to run through the 'what ifs'!

What would happen if a horse suddenly went down with colic? Or got cast. Would you be able to drop your other commitments and run out if needed? If I was paying full livery i'd expect a staff member to be on yard at all times during day. If there was someone else covering you that's fine, but if people are paying full livery they would expect someone with enough knowledge and experience to deal with these situations (ie, not a 16yr old girl who helps mucking out)
 
I'd work out your maths very carefully.

Each full livery (I'm basing the definition on everything necessary for day to day care - turn out, muck out, in again, rug change, groom, feed, late night check, except exercise)

Hay - given lack of grazing could easily be a bale a day (more in winter) so £4 x 7 = £28
bedding - 2 bales of shavings a week £7 x 2 = £14
Hard feed - scoop mix and chaff twice a day at a rough guess = £10 a week

So if you charge £100 a week your direct costs would be at least £50

That leaves £50 a week for :
- the extra electricity (full liveries tend to work so will use school lights 4/5 nights a week)
- insurance - you need lots of this to have the public on site, this could be £50 a month easily!
- water (if metered)
- stable/ fence/ field/ school maintenace - for £100 a week they'll expect the school harrowed a good few times a week.

Given the time it'll take you I suspect you'll be working for less than minimum wage esp, given farrier visits etc.

Most yards need to have quite a few liveries to make it worth their while.
 
I would go for part livery, if you are going to be working elsewhere. I can only speak from my current yard manager's experience, but after a year, she seems to be really struggling with a mix of DIY and part (in our area, everything but riding, grooming and cleaning tack). 3.5 acres isn't a lot for 4 horses, so I'd agree that extra land would be a bonus - even if it's for a couple of months per year. Part on my yard is £480 per calendar month. The only money from the DIYs is when they buy feed through the YM and in my case she doesn't get that, as I feed dry haylage for coughing reasons. Money made on bedding is about £1 per week, from 3 liveries. Whoopee!
 
Polos Mum said:
I'd work out your maths very carefully.

Each full livery (I'm basing the definition on everything necessary for day to day care - turn out, muck out, in again, rug change, groom, feed, late night check, except exercise)

Hay - given lack of grazing could easily be a bale a day (more in winter) so £4 x 7 = £28
bedding - 2 bales of shavings a week £7 x 2 = £14
Hard feed - scoop mix and chaff twice a day at a rough guess = £10 a week

So if you charge £100 a week your direct costs would be at least £50

That leaves £50 a week for :
- the extra electricity (full liveries tend to work so will use school lights 4/5 nights a week)
- insurance - you need lots of this to have the public on site, this could be £50 a month easily!
- water (if metered)
- stable/ fence/ field/ school maintenace - for £100 a week they'll expect the school harrowed a good few times a week.

Given the time it'll take you I suspect you'll be working for less than minimum wage esp, given farrier visits etc.

Most yards need to have quite a few liveries to make it worth their while.
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I'd also agree with this. If all you want if for your horse to be paid for, then maybe DIY IS the better option, with them buying hay and bedding through you. The other thing YM struggles with is all the work in winter and that's with 2 x part and her own three, but she's there full time! I don't think she makes any profit at all.
 
Just another thought - if you were looking at the Competition market, they probably would want to keep their lorry/trailer on site - have you got room for that?
 
EllenJay said:
Just another thought - if you were looking at the Competition market, they probably would want to keep their lorry/trailer on site - have you got room for that?
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I have room for another lorry or trailer.

The maths done as similar to what I have worked out too! This is why I want to expand but I cant afford it yet :(

When I say I will work else where I will be riding for someone 5min down the road and doing some freelance teaching.


As for someone being on the yard 24/7 when I was on livery there has never been someone there 24/7 and ive always had to be there for vets visits and farrier visits unless arranged otherwise
 
Maybe it is different where you are but around here full livery is expensive and involves full care of your horse. How can someone offer that, take your money, then go and work offsite? You should probably offer DIY as then there is no expectation on you to be there all day.
 
HBM1 said:
Maybe it is different where you are but around here full livery is expensive and involves full care of your horse. How can someone offer that, take your money, then go and work offsite? You should probably offer DIY as then there is no expectation on you to be there all day.
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Thats a fair point. I would be away a few hours a day and not everyday but I see the point.

DIY round here is sole rent of the facilities, nothing else and makes no money.

Maybe you guys know what I am talking about better as part?

Mucking out, haying, feeding, turning out and bringing in? Owner comes and does the rest but if cant come down for a day doesnt matter as horse is sorted kind of thing?

Basically as I would care for my own?
 
Nightmare before Christmas said:
As for someone being on the yard 24/7 when I was on livery there has never been someone there 24/7 and ive always had to be there for vets visits and farrier visits unless arranged otherwise
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That's very unusual, in 30 years I've never been in a yard on full livery where there hasn't been someone there during day. The whole point of full livery is that the owner often CAN'T make it up during day.

The assisted livery sounds more like what you offer, but then, is there the profit in it for you?
 
Nightmare before Christmas said:
Maybe you guys know what I am talking about better as part?

Mucking out, haying, feeding, turning out and bringing in? Owner comes and does the rest but if cant come down for a day doesnt matter as horse is sorted kind of thing?

Basically as I would care for my own?
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We call that full here, but know some on the forum call that part, had that debate before :p

The good thing with full livery is all the horses have a routine, go out together, get fed together etc. I like that :)

Cant offer any advice, but good luck.
 
paddi22 said:
That's very unusual, in 30 years I've never been in a yard on full livery where there hasn't been someone there during day. The whole point of full livery is that the owner often CAN'T make it up during day.

The assisted livery sounds more like what you offer, but then, is there the profit in it for you?
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Im not looking for a massive profit, if I can keep my horse at home for free and make a bit towards competing that is ideal, anymore is a bonus!

Ive always been on small, private livery yards. I am normally the only livery or there has been one or two others. Ive payed up to 120 a week for 'full livery' which was, horse mucked out and skipped out, hayed, fed (on my own feed), turned out and fetched in, rugs changed if YO felt it was needed or asked for, and use of school.

Ive been on one big livery yard with 'full' (same as above) for 70pw.

All yard YO hasnt been there all day as been competing, out buying, out having their own life ect

Maybe I come from a weird area!
 
Nightmare before Christmas said:
Thats a fair point. I would be away a few hours a day and not everyday but I see the point.

DIY round here is sole rent of the facilities, nothing else and makes no money.

Maybe you guys know what I am talking about better as part?

Mucking out, haying, feeding, turning out and bringing in? Owner comes and does the rest but if cant come down for a day doesnt matter as horse is sorted kind of thing?

Basically as I would care for my own?
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Yep, that's part round here. A few hours a day means it would be a struggle for you, I think. Fine when ticking over, but you need to account for deliveries, standing for farrier, fence mending, school harrowing, poo picking for 4 horses.

A problem a livery has on my current yard is that YM is the only person there. If she's sick or injured, the part liveries would be stuffed.
 
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