Advice on offering livery

um..... ive been on full livery and staff have been there for most of the day but no=one can really be there ALL day!!! :D

wouldn tbother me if someone wasnt there all day....what do you expect them to do - watch the horse graze?!?!

as long as the beds done and horse brought in for feeds and also there for farrier etc i dont see it a problem :)
 
Rather than full livery, what about short term livery?
Your facilities sound good.

Are you near any very good hacking, national parks that kind of thing?
Or competition venues?

You could make what you could in a month by offering livery to people who want to bring their horses to the area for a week for instance.
 
Aarrghimpossiblepony said:
Rather than full livery, what about short term livery?
Your facilities sound good.

Are you near any very good hacking, national parks that kind of thing?
Or competition venues?

You could make what you could in a month by offering livery to people who want to bring their horses to the area for a week for instance.
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I am right by kingswood EC (hacking distance) 5min in a lorry from Rodbaston and Weston Park. Cannock chase is about 20min

Im not sure about temp, dont really like the idea of people coming and going off my yard
 
noodle_ said:
um..... ive been on full livery and staff have been there for most of the day but no=one can really be there ALL day!!! :D

wouldn tbother me if someone wasnt there all day....what do you expect them to do - watch the horse graze?!?!

as long as the beds done and horse brought in for feeds and also there for farrier etc i dont see it a problem :)
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Please don't take what I have said completely out of context and make it into a ridiculous scenario.

What I am saying is, if someone is taking my money to provide a FULL care service for my horse, then I would expect them to be providing that service, not working elsewhere at the same time. I do not expect people not to be able to go shopping, visit friends etc etc. Why should owners need to worry about emergency vet call outs, farrier visits - horse going down with colic, or any other issues - even running out of hay etc, whilst someone goes to work elsewhere? As far as I am concerned if that is the case, I would do my own horse or pay for assisted DIY - which is actually what you would get from someone who "does beds and brings horse in for feed and farrier" etc.

However, of course, if someone wants to go ahead and pay £150 or more for that a week, as opposed to assisted DIY, it is their money to do so. (And yes, that is what full livery costs AT LEAST around my way).
 
I will make sure people know that I will be riding for someone down the road a few days a week (the people interested know this anyway).

I only want to do it as ive been asked by 15+ people now if I will have livery.

I was just going to use the stable to have horses in for schooling/breaking but they arnt constant payers
 
OP, could you PM me with your contact details and exact location? I may be interested in your yard for the future.
Thank you
 
Many livery yards these days do not make a profit. Unless they are absolutely huge and offering other services alongside, such as hire of SJ arenas/ XC course etc.

I think most aim to break even - and are lucky to do so. Full/ competition livery is the way to go to bring in the most money but many don't realise how it's all going to balance out.

I have recently looked into it and am fully aware of how tight things would be - and I was looking at a 10 box yard.

if you own the place outright and have no rent/ mortgage to pay then that is a huge bonus. But you will need to pay insurance for your liveries as well as business rates and don't forget your income from the liveries will be taxable.

I don't wan to sound pessamistic (but more realistic) and suggest what might happen if something happens to you, such as breaking a leg, especially if you are working full time with horses - the chances/ risks are higher. You would need to emply a freelance groom. have you worked out how much that would cost, for say 6 weeks to 2 months.

Paying a groom to cover for all eventualities (large and small) was for me, the biggest expense and the largest concern.


I think that with 4 boxes, you will struggle to make any money at all.
 
Fanatical said:
Many livery yards these days do not make a profit. Unless they are absolutely huge and offering other services alongside, such as hire of SJ arenas/ XC course etc.

I think most aim to break even - and are lucky to do so. Full/ competition livery is the way to go to bring in the most money but many don't realise how it's all going to balance out.

I have recently looked into it and am fully aware of how tight things would be - and I was looking at a 10 box yard.

if you own the place outright and have no rent/ mortgage to pay then that is a huge bonus. But you will need to pay insurance for your liveries as well as business rates and don't forget your income from the liveries will be taxable.

I don't wan to sound pessamistic (but more realistic) and suggest what might happen if something happens to you, such as breaking a leg, especially if you are working full time with horses - the chances/ risks are higher. You would need to emply a freelance groom. have you worked out how much that would cost, for say 6 weeks to 2 months.

Paying a groom to cover for all eventualities (large and small) was for me, the biggest expense and the largest concern.


I think that with 4 boxes, you will struggle to make any money at all.
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I agree with you. As long as I can cover my own horses living cost that will do for now.

The people interested are people I have known for years and know the deal. I imagine if I was injured they would all help and fees would reflect this. I know about tax and that me and my dad are trying to work this out.

I would like to win the lottery and buy the field next door and pop 15-20 boxes up ;)
 
I think you've got yourself over-excited without thinking of everything that can go wrong.

One of the first things you need to consider is how much extra it's going to cost you in business rates, and insurance; this hasn't been mentioned at all yet. That could wipe out nearly all your "profit" immediately; and make it not worth your while even thinking about doing.

What happens if you take a nasty fall from a horse that you're riding at the other yard, and have to go to hospital? Have you got someone experienced that can just drop what they're doing & sort the horses out for afternoon stables? It would have to be someone completely reliable if you're taking money from people to look after their horses.

What about if you get up there in the morning, and find a horse colicing, or having injured itself - will you tell your employer that you can't get in to work on time because you have to wait for the vet and make sure the horse is OK?

So you go to get a horse in for the vet/farrier, and they are an hour late - again, is your employer going to just accept you not going back to work because you're looking after someone else's horse? This could happen on a regular basis.

I think you'd be better off offering DIY with services; but I would recommend firstly finding out how much extra your rates and insurance are going to be (especially with a flood-lit school); you may well find that it's not worth it at all.
 
JennBags said:
I think you've got yourself over-excited without thinking of everything that can go wrong.

One of the first things you need to consider is how much extra it's going to cost you in business rates, and insurance; this hasn't been mentioned at all yet. That could wipe out nearly all your "profit" immediately; and make it not worth your while even thinking about doing.

What happens if you take a nasty fall from a horse that you're riding at the other yard, and have to go to hospital? Have you got someone experienced that can just drop what they're doing & sort the horses out for afternoon stables? It would have to be someone completely reliable if you're taking money from people to look after their horses.

What about if you get up there in the morning, and find a horse colicing, or having injured itself - will you tell your employer that you can't get in to work on time because you have to wait for the vet and make sure the horse is OK?

So you go to get a horse in for the vet/farrier, and they are an hour late - again, is your employer going to just accept you not going back to work because you're looking after someone else's horse? This could happen on a regular basis.

I think you'd be better off offering DIY with services; but I would recommend firstly finding out how much extra your rates and insurance are going to be (especially with a flood-lit school); you may well find that it's not worth it at all.
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I have thought about this. Its all in discussion with my Dad (hes in charge of the business side of it)

My employer would be fine with me going home to sort something or being late due to an issue with a horse at home. My yard is at the back of my house and my neighbour who I am close too has racehorses (high level) and she is always happy to help if needed.

Also I am not excited, I want to look at this fully before making any commitment. I am in no rush to get this going
 
I took on a few liveries for a while (basic full livery, some would call it assisted DIY) I did mucking out, turnout, catching, feeding etc.
When working out my charges I stupidly assumed all horses were as wonderfully clean as mine and good doers. Along come a few of the filthiest, hungriest, most distructive horses ever. It took me twice as long to muck out one livery than it did to muck out all 4 of my horses. My fields and arena also got destroyed by their massive hooves. I'm sticking to grass liveries. And pony ones at that!
 
minimilton said:
I took on a few liveries for a while (basic full livery, some would call it assisted DIY) I did mucking out, turnout, catching, feeding etc.
When working out my charges I stupidly assumed all horses were as wonderfully clean as mine and good doers. Along come a few of the filthiest, hungriest, most distructive horses ever. It took me twice as long to muck out one livery than it did to muck out all 4 of my horses. My fields and arena also got destroyed by their massive hooves. I'm sticking to grass liveries. And pony ones at that!
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oh dear! If I had more fields I could do grass!
 
I honestly can't see how people make money from offering any type of livery really. I can only assume it is a lifestyle choice or to prop up their own horses as very few must make a living much above national min wage. The cost of haylage and feed etc is going up as are other costs; I think this winter has proved that for many. The health and safety/business rates/tax/insurance aspect would also put me off for the relative income generated.

The only way I would consider doing 'livery' would be if I was lucky enough to have my own small holding and offered a space to one person at reduced rates on a DIY or shared cover basis so that our horse could be sorted on weekends away in exchange for reduced rate.
 
Don't let my story put you off, just assume that they will eat you out of house and home when working out the charges!

With regard to the limited land, perhaps consider a track system? That would be a bigish investment as it would require lots of stone. But it would prevent the land getting poached and the horses could still get a good few hours turnout. When the weather is drier you could give them access to the central grassy part. 3.5 acres would get destroyed very quickly.
 
You talk about expanding but I really can't see how you could do this on three and half acres good turn out is a must for most owners.
 
minimilton said:
Don't let my story put you off, just assume that they will eat you out of house and home when working out the charges!

With regard to the limited land, perhaps consider a track system? That would be a bigish investment as it would require lots of stone. But it would prevent the land getting poached and the horses could still get a good few hours turnout. When the weather is drier you could give them access to the central grassy part. 3.5 acres would get destroyed very quickly.
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I have thought about stone or grass mats around gates (these are the only bits that get messy unless big fields are paddocked off).

Its very interesting reading everyones replies :)
 
Nightmare before Christmas said:
There is a 4-5 acre field joining onto my plot, we are looking into buying it
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Ah I see.
When I worked on a yard that did full livery the owners did nothing , they did not tack up put their horse back in a stable we did every thing including for long term cilents all the horses " development" in terms of his training you would struggle I think to provide this service .
But you don't need to find many people to make this work one competitive person with a job and two horses plus a project horse for schooling would fill your yard.
If you found the right person I don't think you being off the yard for specified times would be an issue that could not be managed round .
I would say find the right cilent and then work out how to meet their needs.
In this sort of small set up you must get the right cilents.
 
Goldenstar said:
Ah I see.
When I worked on a yard that did full livery the owners did nothing , they did not tack up put their horse back in a stable we did every thing including for long term cilents all the horses " development" in terms of his training you would struggle I think to provide this service .
But you don't need to find many people to make this work one competitive person with a job and two horses plus a project horse for schooling would fill your yard.
If you found the right person I don't think you being off the yard for specified times would be an issue that could not be managed round .
I would say find the right cilent and then work out how to meet their needs.
In this sort of small set up you must get the right cilents.
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Yes the clients have approached me and I know them well. Its what got me thinking in the first place. Two payers and a breaker/schooling livery would work quite well for now.

Pointless having 4 stables just stood there. After losing two horses and buying a nice one I am not in the position to fill these stables with my own steeds just yet ;)
 
we have also been looking at a property with some livery facilites
you could be expecting business rates similar to this
they would then be multipled by the small business mulitipler = £0.462

Stables – Are done on one rate for stables between 10m square and 20m square
4 x £200 = £800
Hay barn – average size? 7m x 7m = 49m square
49 x £3 = 147
Outdoor school – can vary in cost – better the condition = more expensive
800 x £1.50 = 1200
Tack room – average size 4m x 4m = 16m
16m x £15 = £240
Feed room – average size 3m x 3m = 12m
12m x £15 = 180
Container – average size 42m square?
42 x £10 = 420

even to cover these cost you've got to be looking at quite high livery costs..... not to mention everything else e.g. water, electricity, insurance, bedding, feed, maintience etc etc!
 
TandD said:
we have also been looking at a property with some livery facilites
you could be expecting business rates similar to this
they would then be multipled by the small business mulitipler = £0.462

Stables – Are done on one rate for stables between 10m square and 20m square
4 x £200 = £800
Hay barn – average size? 7m x 7m = 49m square
49 x £3 = 147
Outdoor school – can vary in cost – better the condition = more expensive
800 x £1.50 = 1200
Tack room – average size 4m x 4m = 16m
16m x £15 = £240
Feed room – average size 3m x 3m = 12m
12m x £15 = 180
Container – average size 42m square?
42 x £10 = 420

even to cover these cost you've got to be looking at quite high livery costs..... not to mention everything else e.g. water, electricity, insurance, bedding, feed, maintience etc etc!
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Do you mean to cover costs of these things? They have already been paid off
 
I would echo the commets about rating, in addition I suspect you will need planning permission for a change of use, this would probably be a commercial application and can cost £1000 +. The change to commercial council tax charges can be quite a shock - I did consider this for a 5 box yard and it was completely non viable, even with 3 full liveries! Then there are other requirements which may be levied, like a loo (do you offer the use of you own bathrooms?).

Sorry to be negative, but eyes wide open is a good way to look at any business venture. Please do think of the negatives as they have a nasty habit of coming to bite you!
 
Slightly Foxed said:
No, no, TandD is talking about the rateable value of these things, not the cost of building them.
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But bear in mind that rateable value is not the same as the rates bill, that will be a certain percentage (pence in the pound) of the rateable value. Also, as a very small business there will probably be small business rates relief which could half the bill.

Note tho that you will pay rates on the boxes even ifnp they are empty which is what leads YOs to have to keep every box full and the fields etc suffer because of the overcrowding.

Also bear in mind that your stables PP may only be for domestic use, mine is.

And that if commercial the water company may force you onto a water meter, which given the water usage of horses can put costs up.

Nightmare before Christmas, yep with only 4 boxes I reckon it will be. I dont think there is any money in it.
 
OP you sound super keen to give it a go, so we probably won't convince you otherwise. A few tips
- a really really good detailed contract - even for friends/ people you know

- make sure your contract allows you to give them a months notice for no reason so if it works out that it's costing you a fortune to run around after other people you can close up shop relatively easily.

- make sure you make money each week in the winter as well as summer or you'll have people getting a good deal in the winter who then leave in the summer and you haven't even covered your costs

- Don't write off other options - near to comp venues you could do single night livery before comps - BE members pay £15/£20 a night for this then the land isn't a big deal.
 
You will only need to pay the buisness rates on the space on the yard used by the liverys so thats part of the tack room haybarn etc you will need change of use for the yard from domestic to commercial if it's non buisness use ATM.
If you are not on a water meter you will be put onto one .
My friend had a part livery part / domestic yard they negoatiated with the council percentages of the storage space to cover the percentage of the stables that where run as a buisness .
 
I think there is far more money to be made in freelance grooming, dog walking or sitting. £10-£15 and hour, Overheads insurance,car and petrol. Flexible, if a customer ends up being a nightmare don't go back.
I have a small yard and plenty of grazing but after had a few nutters and a livery from hell in the space of 3months never a gain.
 
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