Advice on snatching (of treats etc)

Kallibear

Kallibear

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I have a lovely horse on what-amounts-to a loan. Beautiful boy, eager to please and talented. But not easy. He's very quirky and could be (and has been) really difficult in the wrong hands. He has to be THE biggest drama queen I've ever come across!

He has a long list of silly quirks but one, which I'm not sure how to deal with, is his manner in taking treats.

He seems to have no idea how to take them with his lips, instead grabing at them with his teeth. If you're not careful he'll take a finger off too.

If he's calm and relaxed he'll approach your hand calmly and slowly, but then peel back him lips and grab at it with his teeth. If he doesn't get it straight away, or misses, he becomes more and more frantic and 'teethy'. He never does what other horses do, where they feel about with their lips - he starts to run his teeth over your hand and nip.

If he's then told off, or he's stressed for some other reason (he stresses a lot :rolleyes: ), but offered again he lunges, trying to get in and out as quickly as possibly and he's accidently bitten me more than once that way.

There is no nastiness in it, only fear (which goes for all his handling problems - god knows why - he's been well loved all his life!). Telling him off only makes him worse. A 100 times worse.

I did a little clicker training with him but if anything it made it worse. It stopped the mugging, and he now looks away, but it made the 'lunge' at your hand much worse, once he's allowed it.

Not feeding treats didn't work either - he didn't get for months but was even worse when they started again. He's incredibly food motivated and a reward really speeds up his learning. And a treat helps take him off Planet Toby when he's gone into overdrive. Just 'never feeding by hand' doesn't solve the problem, just mask it, I want to teach him to take it gentley, but I have no idea how!

Any ideas? I'd quite like to keep all my fingers!
 
Not easy hun, but it sounds like he's in really good hands now. I'd say never, ever give him a treat purely as a "treat". Insist he works for them. My last ned came from a trekking centre and the girls there had taught him that when they said "Do you want a polo Sullivan?" (and rustled some paper) he had to nod his head vigorously to indicate yes please! Then he got his polo. You could give your ned an earned treat for eg stepping politely backwards in his stable, waiting patiently for his tea, lowering his head quietly etc etc etc. A million things that will help HIM and help YOU. It won't happen overnight and you will need the utmost, never-changing consistency or he will get even more confused. To stay safe, you could start by teaching him something over the stable door. If he gets silly, you just say NO firmly and walk away for a few seconds. Just teaching him to stand for a quiet moment will be an enormous start. After that, you can build up until he will make you a cup of tea (or pour a glass of wine!) for a polo xxx
 
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Sorry but tit bitting horses nearly always leads to them biting and grabbing for food. If you have to give a treat give it in feed bowl.

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I disagree entirely i'm afraid. All 6 of my other horses are feed by hand, and regularly, and not a single one snatches, ever. Two of them were terrible nippers and biters before they came. If they want their treat they all, withough exception, initially sniff your hand once as they realise you have something for them, then look away until they're allowed. Toby does the touch and look away, but then grabs once he's 'allowed'. Snatching is usually a sign of badmanners and can be easily sorted with a little clicker training. However in Toby's case it's not bad manners but seems to be fear based.

Plus carrying a feed bowl whilst out hacking is rather inconvinient
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i never feed by hand. i put a treat or carrot or apple on floor or in bucket. grabby bargy nippy horses are vile! why wont a pat and words suffice? why do you feel the need to feed by hand? and tit bitting a greedy horse ? well do you like your fingers? there is NO NEED
 
I had one that would only take a treat with his teeth, so i used to hold a polo with finger and thumb with my hand against his muzzle put the polo against the lips at the side and he would open his mouth and i would just pop it in his mouth. he never tried to bite with my hand at the side, also he could'nt with my hand against his muzzle. This sounds odd i know, but it worked for me. IN the end he would just open his mouth to have a treat dropped in.
 
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After that, you can build up until he will make you a cup of tea (or pour a glass of wine!) for a polo xxx

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LOL
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I like that idea
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Great idea but sadly it hasn't worked. His manners are impecable and there's plenty of actions and 'tricks' he can do in return of a treat. The swiftness and accurancy of the required action gets better and better. And he's always calm and relaxed about taking it as he knows he's earned it and it is therefore HIS. It's just the'grabbing' of the treat that never seems to improve! It's almost like he doesn't know anyother way to take the treat. And I don't know how to teach him.

He ALWAYS gets one for things he's had issues over: for having his girth done up, for picking his feet up, for standing still for me to get on. For not freaking when I get off. For letting me brush his face. For flipping the leadrope over his neck. The list of things he's had issues with is endless :rolleyes: He comes up with something new every week. And you HAVE to be consistant and patient with them, regardless of how bloody stupid he's being, (and how much you want to strangle him) otherwise he just freaks out and looses the plot.
 
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grabby bargy nippy horses are vile!................tit bitting a greedy horse ?

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Maybe I didn't make it clear. He's not bargy (in the slightest!), he NEVER nips and he's not greedy either. He grabs because he doesn't know any other way to take his treat and has been punished for it in the past, making him worried and panic-y about it.

In case you didn't read my first post stating why I use treats - it's an extra reward for him when he tries extra hard, it MAKES him try extra hard, and enjoy it more (which is why clicker training works so well) and it's the only thing that can snap him out of 'planet Toby' - it makes his stop and think just long enough so I can get through to him.

Fii - that's interesting, thanks. Do you mean at the edge, like the corners of him mouth? I'll try that with Toby. Might help with his dramatic over-reaction to worming too
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I'd still like to teach him to take it normally too though. My 2yr old is the gentlest pony ever about taking treats - I keep pointing to him but toby doesn't listen
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well i think he has got you well sussed out! how long do his issues have value? he is loved and cherished now so no need to be vulgar. i would pat him up and give his treat on flor when you get off and are finished.
 
Yes thats right by the corner, if you rest your hand on his muzzle and he tries to grab you can just push him away gently.
 
Thanks Fii, I'll def try that. I think it might work for him, once he gets the idea.

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and when he bites you you could smack him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Since you quite clearly HAVEN'T read my posts, or you haven't managed to understand: 1) he's not biting and 2) smacking him, as I clearly stated, only makes him much much worse, and frightens him more. It acheives nothing constructive.
 
Do you ever see him use his lips for 'woffling' about? Like picking stuff up off the floor etc?

As you clicker train anyway, could you get him to let you fiddle about with/tickle his top lip so he wibbles it about, eventually getting him to do it on your palm held in a 'stop' position and gradually flattening your hand. (I do understand that the rewarding is the tricky bit here!!) This way you are eliciting the behaviour you want.
 
My guess is that he snatches because although he badly wants the treat, he is a worried that it will either be withdrawn or that he will get a negative reaction once he has taken it. It could just have been that he inadvertently got someones fingers once in the past and he was scared by their reaction. So now he thinks its best to grab it quick!

I would probably try using a treat that doesn't need to be given in the flat of your hand - perhaps cut some fingers of carrot or something like that. He could take them easier and over time would realise that there isn't such a drama attached to getting a treat.

By the way I don't have anything against using treats to reward good behaviour or stave off dramas. My horses get treats several times a day eg for getting caught, for standing nicely to have their headcollar taken off when they are turned out etc. Neither are at all pushy, bargy or silly about them, they know they get 1 and then that's it, no point them asking for more!
 
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Sorry but tit bitting horses nearly always leads to them biting and grabbing for food. If you have to give a treat give it in feed bowl.

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totally agree with this. very occasional treats wont do too much damage but regular tit bitting is very likely to lead to problems
 
If you must feed treats feed them from the ground.

I would work on changing your rewad for clicker training from food to a rub & fuss. Lots of good video examples of this and the reward being the click itself on you tube.

Honestly? I think you need to admit to yourself that using food as a reward for this horse is not working, even if he is food driven.
 
I agree totally with your attitude to giving treats. I have kept horses for almost 40 years, have used treats as part of my daily routine and have NEVER had a problem. We have had horses of varying ages with widely differing backgrounds, from those who were kept short of food to those who were allowed to do exactly as they pleased, prior to coming to us. We insist on good manners in all circumstances and get them, so we reward for this.
As to the problem you are having, it certainly sounds as though Toby feels that he must grab the treat and go as fast as he can. I can only suggest giving treats which you can hold at a distance such as carrot fingers etc. I give a treat from on top after I've finished tightening girths and pop them in from the side, this does avoid the possibility of nipping.
 
i also don't agree with giving treats from the hand somone gave my 2 year old food from the hand for 2 weeks after i was having to stop him from nipping etc i also give them treats within their tea of just from the floor they should be doing something because they want to do and are comfortable doing it not just because they want food imo
 
Don't give him treats, give him scratches instead. Also get him more rock solid about the things he has "issues" with, because if he continues to stress about them then the problem isn't really solved.
 
It's fine giving a treat, just don't give it by hand, put it in a bowl (or on the ground)
 
simple answer......dont give the bloody thing treats!

no treats...no biteing...

if you REALLY have the urge to give it treats, put them in abucket.
 
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