Advice on wages needed!

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MissIndependance

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Just wanted to pick some brains... We're looking at taking on a groom in the next couple of weeks.

Now at the moment the work is fairly basic and not particularly hard work, physically or mentally... we're talking 5 days a week, 7 or 8 hours a day, with an unpaid lunch hour.

Work would include up to 5 stables, (inc muck out, hay, feed, rugs, feed, turn out of horses), working 2-3 horses a day, daily foal handling/leading work, and checking of over 50 horses in the fields (walking round field looking for lumps, lameness, cuts etc)

So we're not talking anything particularly taxing...

Currently no accomadation offered although there could be discounted/free livery taken into account

Assumably minimum wage applies.... This works out at over £220 a week - which for an unqualified person doing poo shovelling and basic schooling/exercising seems a lot? Or am I just out of touch with wages - having not worked in the horse world for 10 years!

Any thoughts on what would be a fair wage for this kind of work greatfully received!

Later on the work will change to involve much more work with youngsters, and more riding when we open the new yard and the stud season starts but for now it's not that exciting!
 
No, that sounds right... you couldnt pay less than minimum wage anyway, no matter how 'easy' you deem the work to be.

Individually checking 50 horses on a daily basis is one hell of a task in itself...
 
Checking the horses isn't too bad - I do it every day with 2 kids en tow - that's what the quad bike is for! Now if she had to WALK to the fields every day - well that would take hours!

Thanks for your thoughts - Just trying to weigh up getting in someone now before the new yard is up and running or whether to wait til then and get a couple of people who ARE qualified in...

Hard to work out whether we're better off waiting til then or not...hmmm....decisions!
 
If you can do it yourself then it's maybe worth waiting.

I can't understand though why you're questioning paying ONE person minimum wage, when you're then saying you might take two people on (who will want paying more than MW).
 
Good luck getting some mug to do all that for £220 a week, especially with no accomadation. Do you mean before tax or take home?
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That IS alot of work for £180 a week.

I wouldnt do it.... no paid lunch hour, no accomodation. The least you could offer aswell is free livery for one horse... even if it's grass livery.

Go into the NAGS and careers section (down the bottom) and ask in there how many would do that for £180 a week.
 
Christmas Kate when we have 2 people we will be running a fairly large livery yard (20 horses on full livery) and therefore will have an income so can offset that against the wages - currently it's just our own horses that she'd be doing...so obviously a lot harder to justify!

When we have 2 grooms accomadation will also be included all being well so completely different circumstances and job descriptions - this is a kind of interim. Not questioning paying the minimum wage - wouldnt dream of paying less than that - I think perhaps I'm too generous with how long I anticipate someone taking.
If Silmarillion is doing a similar workload on a part time basis then perhaps I am allotting too much time in my mind for each task...?

Out of interest - I have put aside 2 hours for mucking out 4 stables - inc haying, watering, rugging and turning out horses (fields all very close) - is that realistic? ( I used to do a lot more in the past in tha time frame but the last person we had here struggled to do 4 in 2 hours so now I'm doubting the time allowed!

KVS I am obviously a mug then as I used to do a hell of a lot more than that for a hell of a lot less when I was 19! Mind you that was before the days of NMW... According to the DTI website that is before tax
 
Not enough money to attract staff IMHO.
We have big staffing problems despite it being a lovely, easy yard to work on. We pay minimum wage for a 10 hour day 5 1/2 days/week. No accomodation but free livery and time in the work day to do own horse if required.
 
Blimey times HAVE changed - I used to muck out 12 horses, ride up to 6 a day, teach and do late stables when I worked on yards!

I thought our work load was incredibly low compared to all my friends I went to college with and the work we've done since - I'd have loved a job that allowed me to start at 8, not 6 or 7, and finish at 5 not 6 or 7, and which basically amounted to mucking out 5 stables, lunging or rising 2 horses, grooming 2 foals daily, and then being driven to the field to check the horses!

Christmas Kate - as I said we'd be allowing free livery - she has just sold her horse but is loking to buy another so that would be included too.

Think I'll just leave the backing of the two youngsters til we have the new yard, and I'll get up an hour earlier and muck out before school! Sounds like it could be a better option!

Mind you the girl in question is coming from a showjumping yard where she has 15 beds to muck out and half a dozen to ride a day so she's not afraid of hard work - and only gets £100 a week and 1 day off so no doubt she'd be very pleased with what we'd offer.

But you are making me wonder if it's worth it til we're properly up and running!
 
I think the amount of work you are offering will not fill the day, epec if there is a quad bike involved in checking the horses. Also I think they would have to be lacking in an arm to muck out etc that slow! Can the day be split so there is a few hours am for mucking out etc and a few hours pm for field checks? Or can it all fit in to perhaps the morning. Then it can be a p/t job for the person involved and it will appeal more, as they can work 2 jobs to bump up the money (speaking from own/ friends personal experiences)
If you could still offer discounted/DIY livery then that would be a very appealing job for someone IMO
 
Bossanova good to hear that the minimum wage is what other yards pay - I was beginning to think from some of the responses that people expected more, which as an unqualified 19 year old seemed a bit extravagant!

Good point about time in the work day to do own horse - I'd sort of expected that and am fine with it - but if we do decide to say yes to her working here then it'd be good to let her know that's ok and she's not expected to do it outside of her working hours
 
To be honest, if you offered that wage to someone in Cornwall and for that amount of work - they'd snap your hand off. Can't be much different in Devon really.
 
But back in those days (yes, even when I was a teen and i'm 27 now) girls would do ANYTHINg to work with horses, and take any pay / workload. It just doesnt happen anymore.

I was talking to a guy the other day who runs a hireling yard. He said it's getting increasingly diffcult to find honest reliable girls/lads who will muck out / exercise / school / and accept minimum wage. The problem is that other grooming jobs are offering more and more perks: use of car, accomodation, training, opportunity to compete/ travel abroad etc etc, that grooms don't have to look far to get the job they want, with the pay they want. And also now more girls/lads can afford their own horses and will prefer to keep horses as a hobby and work in an office to pay for it.
 
Pay the minimum wage, and really work out what hours you need doing. Times have changed, and I don't think on the whole that youngsters want to work as hard as we were willing to 'back in the good old days....!" God I sound ancient!
 
Prittstick - fab name BTW! I struggled to think of things to fill the day - that's why I was surprised when people thought it was a lot of work - basically I only really NEED the mucking out of 2 horses to be done - but to make it a more interesting job for her and because I know she needs to make at least £100 a week which is what she was on before I thought I'd add on the backing of 2 of our youngsters (she loves backing babies) which then upped the stables to 4 stables a day.(allowed 2 hours)

I then allotted an hour to sweep the yard & tidy muckheap - again overestimating time rather than underestimating... I allowed 2 hours to start the longlining etc of 2 youngsters - again that seemed generous to me.

Then lunch... Then an hour to check the horses - again generous to be driven (or drive herself of OH trusts her) round 4 fields..

1 hour to get in 2 foals, groom them both, and do some leading work again not essential but will be useful for us and again it ups her hours and makes it interesting) and 1 hour to bring in 4 horses and feed them.


Donkeymad - that's what I thought - but then started to doubt myself! Also bear in mind this is a temporary job for a few months for someone who lives at home so no mortgae or rent to pay.

Now when we look for the permanent - ( or as permanent as horsey jobs ever are!) grooms that will be a whole different ballgame I'm sure... Have been advised to look on a few different equestrian careers sites to find decent grooms.
 
I think it sounds a great job for what you are offering, Im 22 and still do bit work at yards and thats the kind of thing that I would have wanted to do whilst in between college/uni and a proper job, or on a gap year etc.
Whilst it will require responsibility and knowledge, it wont be insanely taxing like pro or teaching yards are.
Il start making my way down to Devon :P
 
I think due to girls age and the fact she is still living at home, and can keep ahorse with you it sounds like a resonable deal, just bear in mind it could be quite a lonely job for someone of that age if she is expected to do it all alone, or will someone be around also, just a thought. When the time comes to look for a more experienced groom, without accommodation where i live it is around the £8 to £10 per hour mark.
 
well to give you an idea i work now and again at a yard-nopw stopped but worked all last week as holiday cover...bear in mind it was only really 2hrs a day i had to muck out deep straw stables of 9 horses and bed down-collect buckets and haynets and then tip all the muck of horses onto muckheap and tyhrow it up onto the heap over head height.which is bloody hard work. then had to sweep up all the yard as well, i got £5 an hour.. so a tenner a day which when i have to pay for fuel as well for the week isnt very much. as i had to travel to and from every day.if it was as many hours a day as you are offering then thats more accountabel.. to be honest it was non stop to get that done, and i couldnt have worked any faster/harder.

i think thats about right.
 
Thanks Daisychain - good to know what the going rate is for someone more exerienced... Hopefully she won't be lonely - she's kept her horses here since she was 16 so knows a lot of people here so hopefully won't be too bad ( we have 12 DIY liveries here too who all get on well so will be around at odd times...
 
Remember she is not just mucking out. I am surprised this girl is being descibed as anything other than experienced if she is to be backing young horses. There is no way to tell how much time a youngster will take each day.
The other thing to remember if she is responsible for checking 50 horses properly plus running her eye over fencing, troughs, rugs etc it just takes 2 or 3 of those horses having problems or a fence problem to give her a long day. I thoroughly check 20 horses a day & it is quite often not a quick job - the swines
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and they always plan to have problems all on the same day.

So I think Rollestone is right in saying it is a full time job. One day it might not be but with that amount of horses you can't tell.
 
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Bossanova good to hear that the minimum wage is what other yards pay - I was beginning to think from some of the responses that people expected more, which as an unqualified 19 year old seemed a bit extravagant!


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I have 2 staff - one is 23, unqualified, but capable. The other is 30, has no formal qualifications but considerable experience, EXTREMELY copetent, has evented to 2* and is brilliant with youngsters. Both get above NMW, paid lunch hour, and work 6 day weeks. They would muck out 5-6 horses an hour (rubber mats with paper - so easy), ride at least 3 a day - and up to 5, plus feeding, haying, watering, etc etc etc, handle youngsters, help with covering (one can handle the stallion if I'm not there) - both live out and one works 8-5, the other 9-5. Neither have horses here.

In your situation it would sound like you could get her to work a short day - say 8-12 - and 2.30 to 5 (allowing time to work her own horse, have lunch etc. NMW plus free keep for horse would seem fair to me.
 
Times have definitely changed. I remember leaving school at 16 and getting a job at a riding school which was a 3 hour journey there and back on public transport and getting a YTS wage of £29.50 per week!
 
firm thats the one thing I picked up on. If she's unqualified and inexperienced and you just want her to do basic yard work then the idea of a short day, livery for her own horse and NMW sounds fine. However if she is to be responsible to back your youngsters then that takes experience to do it properly and do a good job and if she's good enough to do it she is worth paying above NMW. If you mean bakcing as in putting a saddle on them and being the person who has to lie over them first etc thats different from the person who has the responsibility of training the young horse correctly to a good standard.
 
My advice would be that if you have got someone you know is good who is interested then, as you are able to be flexible at the moment, tailor the job to them and grab them with both hands.

We're now just doing DIY livery and not producing competition horses as we simply couldn't get a reliable groom to do 4 stabled horses, school and compete them affiliated BSJA and BE (all at our expense) in return for £280/week plus 15% commission on horses sold plus training where needed, 8-4.30 day, plus accommodation and all bills paid! And that was 8 years ago.
 
I don't think I said she was inexperienced - if I did I phrased it badly, she's not inexperienced by any means, far from it, had horses all her life, and worked on sj yards, backed and broken her own horses - she's just not had any formal exam training, but then we all know you don't need BHS exams to be classed as an experienced groom! She has competed regularly in dressage and backed and worked with showjumpers recently. lots of on the job experience, which to me is what matters.
The person we take on when we have the new yard will be responsible for doing the higher level schooling, and will be paid accordingly! So will be looking for just the right person when we start hiring for that job as it's such an important one. For the next few weeks it's just about getting a couple of the youngsters doing SOMETHING even if it's just hacking!

Stassy that is true dedication for you!
 
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