Advice please...are these feet a deal breaker?

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katiper

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Would you buy a horse that was uptight/too straight in the pastern in the front legs. I've found such an amazing horse, and my instructor agreed she would be perfect for me, but the only thing she mentioned was the fact that the angle from her pastern to hoof is too severe so it would put pressure on the joint.

Do you think this could be helped with shoeing? Is it a bad case? I really have no clue, so all advice welcome :o) I know many horses with great conformation go lame, but I'm weary of buying something that already has increased chances. She is 6 and I want to event up to BE100. I have a 5 stage vetting booked for Monday, but really want some advice/ experience on this...


http://s284.photobucket.com/user/Katiper88/library/?sort=3&page=1

Thank you,
 
Well they're not particularly pretty and I'd want to get them on the road to being sorted before pushing this horse to work hard or else yes there is an increased risk of injury (whether that's something acute or a chronic buildup of damage from overcompensating). What your instructor is trying to get at is that if you draw a line following the slope of the pastern and then the angle the hoof is making with the ground it should be pretty much a straight line and there shouldn't be much / any change in angle between the two. It's hard to see exactly from this photo but if you look at the hairline near the back of the hoof it appears to dip down at the back rather than being pretty much level (as I said not ideal angle which can't be helped as you were literally taking a quick photo so I could be mistaken!) which can indicate weakness of the soft tissue structures at the back of the foot as there's less filling that space if that makes sense? Anyhow yes it can be improvable. My boys were rather much worse looking than this when I woke up to the fact that what we were doing wasn't working (on off lame with sidebone and remedially shod at the time but rather difficult to shoe as well so hard for farrier to do as good a job as he might have otherwise). His feet were improved (to the point they're starting to look like they belong to a different horse) by taking him barefoot and altering his entire diet and management. We'll be a year down the line next month and it's only in the past few months he's coming back to proper full work if that makes sense but as I said he was a bit special to start with and had a lot of changes to make. I'd get the opinion of the vet and try and also of a farrier if you are wanting to keep her shod (Is possible to implement improvements in the overall shape this way over time but you're unlikey to be able to improve internal structures due to it being difficult to get stimulus to them with how far you're lifting the foot off the ground with the shoe) to see what they suggest. It may be that she could manage perfectly well to do what you want but I'd be concerned that her not ideal feet could over time (if not addressed) affect how she loads her limbs / uses muscles and that it could potentially increase her injury risk. This is just my tuppence worth from someone who bought a horse with not great feet (and I knew they weren't great at the time but I figured it wouldn't take a decent farrier long to sort them... yeah I was most definitely wrong on that score!), discovered after the fact how bad he was to shoe (in hindsight probably pain related), had great fun finding a farrier willing to shoe him who was able to do it in a vaguely safeish manner for a bit and then invested a lot of time and money in rehabilitating a lame horse (with a LOT of help and him being sent away on a little holiday I hasten to add). He's slowly turning into the horse I thought I'd bought when I first viewed him but I'm now finding out 2 years down the line that jumping at venues away from home may not be for him (Yeah we're working on this but if it turns out that he's never going to enjoy it then we'll stick to other things)
 
By the way you described it, I thought I'd be looking at two club feet, but no. This is flare forward. The pastern and front hoof angle should match. The difference in their angles is a bone that coming into the hoof, nose down. The long toe has stretched the sole thin as the bone is forced downward on it when weighted. (bone coming down on thin sole) The higher the heel is, the more P3 is down on its nose. The steep pastern angle indicates a dropped nose and one heck of a toe wedge in front of it. Xrays are what will determine the damage from living like this. Lateral and navicular rads are what are going to tell you the truth. I rehab horses and with good care and homework done, it will take 9 months to a year to get this pathology gone, (barefoot) but the fact that she's 6, gives me confidence as I know she'll have less damage and bounce back better and faster than a 12 or 15 year old. Xrays and a vet standing beside you would be my best bet.
 
Yes, as is the rest of horse as detailed on your other thread.

Buy the very best you possibly can, conformation is crucial, add in correct work and a large dose of luck and you might have a super star that gives you years of pleasure.
 
Boulty said:
Well they're not particularly pretty and I'd want to get them on the road to being sorted before pushing this horse to work hard or else yes there is an increased risk of injury (whether that's something acute or a chronic buildup of damage from overcompensating). What your instructor is trying to get at is that if you draw a line following the slope of the pastern and then the angle the hoof is making with the ground it should be pretty much a straight line and there shouldn't be much / any change in angle between the two. It's hard to see exactly from this photo but if you look at the hairline near the back of the hoof it appears to dip down at the back rather than being pretty much level (as I said not ideal angle which can't be helped as you were literally taking a quick photo so I could be mistaken!) which can indicate weakness of the soft tissue structures at the back of the foot as there's less filling that space if that makes sense? Anyhow yes it can be improvable. My boys were rather much worse looking than this when I woke up to the fact that what we were doing wasn't working (on off lame with sidebone and remedially shod at the time but rather difficult to shoe as well so hard for farrier to do as good a job as he might have otherwise). His feet were improved (to the point they're starting to look like they belong to a different horse) by taking him barefoot and altering his entire diet and management. We'll be a year down the line next month and it's only in the past few months he's coming back to proper full work if that makes sense but as I said he was a bit special to start with and had a lot of changes to make. I'd get the opinion of the vet and try and also of a farrier if you are wanting to keep her shod (Is possible to implement improvements in the overall shape this way over time but you're unlikey to be able to improve internal structures due to it being difficult to get stimulus to them with how far you're lifting the foot off the ground with the shoe) to see what they suggest. It may be that she could manage perfectly well to do what you want but I'd be concerned that her not ideal feet could over time (if not addressed) affect how she loads her limbs / uses muscles and that it could potentially increase her injury risk. This is just my tuppence worth from someone who bought a horse with not great feet (and I knew they weren't great at the time but I figured it wouldn't take a decent farrier long to sort them... yeah I was most definitely wrong on that score!), discovered after the fact how bad he was to shoe (in hindsight probably pain related), had great fun finding a farrier willing to shoe him who was able to do it in a vaguely safeish manner for a bit and then invested a lot of time and money in rehabilitating a lame horse (with a LOT of help and him being sent away on a little holiday I hasten to add). He's slowly turning into the horse I thought I'd bought when I first viewed him but I'm now finding out 2 years down the line that jumping at venues away from home may not be for him (Yeah we're working on this but if it turns out that he's never going to enjoy it then we'll stick to other things)
Click to expand...

Thank you for such a detailed response! That is my worry, I want to just go out and compete quite quickly and I don't think I can do that with her if I want to have her sound for the long term. So difficult, the vet said that I won't lose my deposit if I cancel the vetting. So now I'm trying to decide whether it's worth vetting her, becasue I know as she is unlikely to fail as she is sound, it's more issues that could arise in the future. Thank you for this, it has been very helpful and puts things into perspective.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Yes, as is the rest of horse as detailed on your other thread.

Buy the very best you possibly can, conformation is crucial, add in correct work and a large dose of luck and you might have a super star that gives you years of pleasure.
Click to expand...

I have learnt so much about confirmation from this and a currently reading a book on it, so perhaps this incident was needed for me to be a step closer to find something that is decent.
 
missyclare said:
By the way you described it, I thought I'd be looking at two club feet, but no. This is flare forward. The pastern and front hoof angle should match. The difference in their angles is a bone that coming into the hoof, nose down. The long toe has stretched the sole thin as the bone is forced downward on it when weighted. (bone coming down on thin sole) The higher the heel is, the more P3 is down on its nose. The steep pastern angle indicates a dropped nose and one heck of a toe wedge in front of it. Xrays are what will determine the damage from living like this. Lateral and navicular rads are what are going to tell you the truth. I rehab horses and with good care and homework done, it will take 9 months to a year to get this pathology gone, (barefoot) but the fact that she's 6, gives me confidence as I know she'll have less damage and bounce back better and faster than a 12 or 15 year old. Xrays and a vet standing beside you would be my best bet.
Click to expand...

My issue is that if there is damage that the X-rays pick up, then I won't be insured. I Don't think I am willing to do that!
 
katiper said:
Thank you for such a detailed response! That is my worry, I want to just go out and compete quite quickly and I don't think I can do that with her if I want to have her sound for the long term. So difficult, the vet said that I won't lose my deposit if I cancel the vetting. So now I'm trying to decide whether it's worth vetting her, becasue I know as she is unlikely to fail as she is sound, it's more issues that could arise in the future. Thank you for this, it has been very helpful and puts things into perspective.
Click to expand...

My boy passed a five stage vetting as fit for purpose - with a side note that he had "rather boxy feet" . . . I should have listened. He has navicular (although he is currently sound). In your shoes, I would walk away.

P
 
PolarSkye said:
My boy passed a five stage vetting as fit for purpose - with a side note that he had "rather boxy feet" . . . I should have listened. He has navicular (although he is currently sound). In your shoes, I would walk away.

P
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I've decided to do just that. Gutted, but my gut is telling me not to. It's too much risk. I don't want to go with something that already has the odds stacked against it becasue even horses with good conformation go lame. Thanks fornthenadvice guys!
 
Good idea to walk away. I bought one like that in my twenties. the broken back hoof pastern axis caused enormous concussion to his heels and his feet contracted. he did show jump but only indoors or on watered ground. He showed signs of lameness within a year. Good luck in your search and remeber no foot no horse. from the day that I lost him I look at the feet first and the horse second.
 
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