Advice please - chair seat

Lissie2 said:
I'm 38 and stiff 😂
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It will be difficult at first but you need to do it to sit properly. Without sitting on your seat bones correctly you will never be sitting correctly. So it's either try and be in pain for a short time or sit wrong forever. Your choice :)
 
So....been doing lots if work with instructor walk, trot, canter in two point. Also working with no stirrups. Find cantering in two point easy(do it anyway) but trot is killing me. The Usual muscular pain is fine but I very nearly put my back our last night and am now on pain killers. Instructor says need to recondition mymuscles and strengthen lower leg and back to stop chair seat. But this isn't muscular pain. I'm still convinced it's s biomechanical thing. Grrrrrrrr x
 
fatpiggy said:
Get rid of the stirrups for the time being, and make sure you are sitting in the deepest part of the saddle, nicely on your seat bones. Then using the hand on that side, lift your thigh out and back (grab a handful of jod fabric_, moving from the hip. Release the leg and repeat on the other side. Now gently bend your knees and push your hips forward slightly so that you get the feeling that you are about to kneel down on floor. Ignore all the stuff about keeping the heels down, it greatly encourages the chair seat. Think instead about gently pulling your toes up inside your boots. It keeps the ankles relaxed and maintains very gently tension in the calf muscles. Now all you have to do is retain that position!! It will feel very strange at first, but your tongue will tell you that the tiny hole the dentist drilled in your tooth is the size of a bus. Your brain needs to accept the change, and your muscles need to adapt to the new tension/lack of tension. I wouldn't do anything other than walk until you are absolutely settled in that new position, then add sitting trot and canter before introducing rising trot. The crucial part is the kneeling down feeling. Get that established and everything should fall into place.
As others have said though, the construction of a saddle will greatly affect your riding position. And yes, bareback is the classic chair position.
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rachk89 said:
Try what fatpiggy said. I doubt you are sitting on your seat bones at all from how you are sitting so you need to sit properly first the legs will follow.

I got taught the same way as fatpiggy suggested but slightly different. Bring one knee up to the top of the saddle like a jockey then hold your leg off the saddle sideways still bent. After about 5 seconds of holding it up push it backwards and down and stretch your whole leg down. Repeat with other side then do both legs together.

If you have done this right you will be in pain. Sitting on your seat bones hurts a lot when you aren't used to it. So if you aren't in pain keep doing it until you are. Sorry but it will stop hurting eventually. You will get used to it. Keep doing this until you sit on your seat bones naturally. By then your legs should be normally underneath you too. It won't be a quick fix but it will help.
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Lissie2 said:
So....been doing lots if work with instructor walk, trot, canter in two point. Also working with no stirrups. Find cantering in two point easy(do it anyway) but trot is killing me. The Usual muscular pain is fine but I very nearly put my back our last night and am now on pain killers. Instructor says need to recondition mymuscles and strengthen lower leg and back to stop chair seat. But this isn't muscular pain. I'm still convinced it's s biomechanical thing. Grrrrrrrr x
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38 is not an excuse Lissie :D

Now come on, give yourself a bit of time. Don't expect it to magically happen. Your muscles and ligaments are tight and rather less elastic than they were at 28 but they WILL give eventually.

As in two-point, do you mean sitting? Two-point is standing in the stirrups in my mind.

fatpiggy's and rach's advice is excellent. It just wont happen without some work from you at home stretching and building up some core strength. Hard... but worth it :)
 
Lissie2 said:
So....been doing lots if work with instructor walk, trot, canter in two point. Also working with no stirrups. Find cantering in two point easy(do it anyway) but trot is killing me. The Usual muscular pain is fine but I very nearly put my back our last night and am now on pain killers. Instructor says need to recondition mymuscles and strengthen lower leg and back to stop chair seat. But this isn't muscular pain. I'm still convinced it's s biomechanical thing. Grrrrrrrr x
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Shouldn't hurt that much! I haven't read all the posts but is your saddle making it worse?
My friend is exactly the same as you right now and also suffers rhuematoid arthritis and despite learning to do it correctly she hasn't suffered like you!
 
Get a new saddle. You can't force yourself into a position your saddle won't allow. I recently got a solution saddle and for the first time ever have achieved a correct seat. I also have very long thighs. I've changed nothing other than the saddle and yes, my seat bones hurt horrifically for weeks but I wasn't forcing myself into contortions to achieve that, the saddle allowed me to be in the correct position.
 
I have done nothing but work on it. Im fine with muscular pain and would expect that. But putting your back out I don't think is normal.
 
ok I’m 39 and I hear ya sister!!

Its a constant struggle for me and one i started several years ago, sorry, there was no quick fix for me either. If you’ve tried a dressage saddle and it didnt really help Id suggest, if you can, try a different one. I can almost guarantee the wintec GP will be putting you in a chair seat. However the wintec isabel dressage saddle is a really good one for holding you in the right position and the newer ones have stirrup bars that can be moved. The best thing that has helped me is going to pilates, tailored for riders. Im working on my core, using a gymball and the pilates stretches. It’s also helping my back and posture day to day. What I would say, given you hurt your back, is STOP what you’re doing just now and get in to see a good sports physio before you go any further. Explain what you are trying to achieve and ask them if they work along side that. Speaking from experience, holding myself in the wrong position and having tight hip flexors , i ended up with 4 months of sciatica from spasmed lower back muscles and piriformis syndrome. It took ages to get to the root of the cause but it was linked to my posture and how I was trying to hold myself in the saddle.
 
do you have facebook/photobucket etc? easiest thing is to upload a pic to there and then add the link here.

I suspect either way that some good physio and good rehab physio/pilates will be needed along the way.
 
Sorry but a wintec gp wouldn't be my choice for getting a good position and I am guessing it will be tilting backward slightly. This will make it impossible for you and be the cause of your back problem.

Do you have a tack shop that sells lots of second d hand saddles? If so go and sit in some dressage ones
 
Lissie2 said:
I have done nothing but work on it. Im fine with muscular pain and would expect that. But putting your back out I don't think is normal.
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It's all related as muscle attaches to bone and if bone has been used to being pulled into a particular position, then moving it will affect all the little tiny muscles around it too and therefore the bones that relate to it.

The body never moves in isolation, everything is completely connected or else we wouldn't be able to stand let alone walk.

The pain is worrying. Find a good chiro or physio to make sure that there isn't some nerve pinching going on or anything else before you carry on and definitely look into a better saddle.

Also, when you sit in the saddle, are you back towards the cantle or do you sit up towards the pommel? If you sat on a chair now, where does your pubic bone point?
 
I try to sit in the middle. If at home sitting on sofa etc my natural position is to sit on bum not pubic bone. However when I ride I do try and tilt my pelvis forward slightly so on crotch and seat bones. X
 
Lissie2 said:
I try to sit in the middle. If at home sitting on sofa etc my natural position is to sit on bum not pubic bone. However when I ride I do try and tilt my pelvis forward slightly so on crotch and seat bones. X
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Sofa doesn't count! Everyone sits back on a sofa :D

I meant on a hard chair like a dining chair.

Ok, so you hollow your back on the saddle which explains a little why getting your legs back without it hurting the small of your back impossible. You need to draw up your pubic bone "off" the saddle middle ever so slightly and sit on the rockers at the bottom of the pelvis (ischeopubic remus I believe?) which will stretch your back muscles (and engage your core which will be automatic as you can't draw up your pubic bone without drawing in your tummy). Imagine siting on your 'tail' if that helps. Now, if that draws up your thighs then its wrong, it should lengthen the thigh and allow them to feel as if they have pushed down away. Your shoulders will feel like they want to come back over your bottom a bit now too as is natural. Allow that to happen and if doesn't hurt at this point, imagine you are pulling up each vertebrae away from the one below it one at a time (as if you're making the space between them bigger) all the way up to your skull. You'll probably feel 3inches taller now! Without sticking out your chest btw...

This is hard to maintain but will show you the level of body support needed to keep you sitting up straight in the saddle. If any of that hurts more or puts pressure on your spine, something is not right.
 
Lissie2 said:
OK so same on hard chair but not a pronounced. Sit quite far back on my bum x
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It will be interesting to see if postural changes make a difference to you on the saddle. I appreciate changing saddles might not be practical for you but there may be a few things that can be done.

Do post a photo of it/you on saddle. Lots of people here who are very experienced and a couple of saddlers here who may be able to help until you can sort a different saddle, if indeed, it needs changing.
 
Still NO obvious progress! I'm now able to ride two point in all paces confidently, my legs are strong. In two point my position is correct. As soon as my butt hits the saddle my legs come forward. Weirdly my balance isnt too bad and Ive been doing a lot of jumping. I'm close to resorting to those girth/stirrup strap things to see if that helps? It's not the saddle - I've ridden lots of horses in different saddles including my own and still the same x
 
Riding in two-point doesn't really have much to do with position when sitting.

There must be something that is putting you in a chair seat... stirrups too long?

When you butt hits the saddle, are you also sitting on your erm... lady flower? To put it conservatively... (you never know who'e reading!)... if so, then that's your problem.
 
Lissie2 said:
Still NO obvious progress! I'm now able to ride two point in all paces confidently, my legs are strong. In two point my position is correct. As soon as my butt hits the saddle my legs come forward. Weirdly my balance isnt too bad and Ive been doing a lot of jumping. I'm close to resorting to those girth/stirrup strap things to see if that helps? It's not the saddle - I've ridden lots of horses in different saddles including my own and still the same x
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Take your saddle and yourself and go to a mechanical horse. Have a lesson on that and see if they can find out what you are doing to make things so difficult. Id love to come and do a biomechanical lesson for you but I think you are too far away. :(
 
I love biomechanics, and truly believe that when we fix the riders position, we fix the majority of issues with the way of going.

From every thing you've said, it really does sound like the saddle is the root cause of the majority of your issues. I know that is not an answer you want. It is possible to find good second hand saddles that suit long thighs, I bought one last weekend for £400. I have exceptionally long thighs!
 
Saddles are very individual things! What one person likes, another hates.....

I personally avoid GP saddles, I find they usually aren't that great at helping your position or useful for any particular job.

I do everything in jump saddles (I've got one just starting elementary dressage, so she will get a dressage saddle soon). My choice is very flat saddles, with the absolute minimum of knee and thigh blocks. I feel blocks hold you in the position they are set up for, not necessarily the correct position.

I have a Prestige Paris D, a Barnsby Milton and a Barnsby Whittaker. The Whittaker is my least favourite as it has a slightly deeper seat with a slightly bigger knee block, although still on the flat, blockless side compared to most.
 
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