Advice please for shoeing a chronic founder case

[madaboutollie]

Hope someone can give me some advice on this - I'm driving myself mad trying to find the right thing to do. So if anyone has experience of shoeing a chronic founder case, I'd be most grateful for your help

Ny lovely Arab X Welsh (15hh - 12 years old) was diagnosed as a chronic founder case on 29 December. The equine vet immediately took xrays, which showed rotation and a some sinking in the right hoof and a little rotation in the left. The prognosis was that the best we could hope for in future would be for him to be paddock sound without painkillers, which is fine by me, as I'm fortunate enough to have another horse who is a better size for me (the Arab x is the cheeky family pet, who has just been used for light schooling and hacking).

My (fantastic) farrier and vet did the shoeing together as per the xrays using steel heart bar shoes. However, my horse soon became uncomfortable on his front right and the vet did a dorsal wall resection on that hoof, which appeared to release some pressure. It seems that the left foot was then overloaded and that became worse. We took more xrays two days ago, which showed slight deterioration in the right and not much difference in the left. A resection was then performed on the left. So basically this is the second pair of steel heart bars he has had on and he seems to be uncomfortable (shifting from foot to foot, but quite happy to stand), although we are only two days on with this pair. My vet says we need to persevere for a few days and see if things improve before we look at other options. He is on 3 sachets of bute per day.

My lovely gelding has thin, flat soles with low heels and I suspect he is not coping well with the pressure from the frog plate.

Has anyone had any success with the Imprint shoes on a horse with similar foot problems? I've heard a couple of farriers say that the plastic shoes tend to work better on smaller ponies (I presume because they weigh less?). And do the plastic shoes give the same support as metal heart bars as far as the pedal bone is concerned?

Also mentioned as an option was the stable support system (styrofoam) which I don't have any experience of.

Any advice you can offer (particularly success stories!) would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Nari]

PMing you!

 

[touchstone]

I found shoes weren't the answer for my lamintic (sinker) and made things worse, I'd recommend a look at www.hoofrehab.com

I have now had my mare barefoot for the past ten (?) or so years, she has had a couple of laminitic episodes in that time but always recovered well, I wouldn't resort to shoes for her now.

eta - I also feel that it is better to make a horse comfy in boots and pads that are easier to adjust and remove than other methods.

 

[soloequestrian]

Read Jaime Jackson's 'Founder, its Prevention and Cure'. Fascinating book, will give you lots of hope!

 

[quirky]

I have PM'd you.

 

[brucea]

My lovely gelding has thin, flat soles with low heels and I suspect he is not coping well with the pressure from the frog plate.

Probably not! I'm of the school of thought that shoes, providing peripheral support, just can't help a laminitis case.

The best shoe for a laminitic is the one that they grow themselves - properly maintained and well fed. That will give you the greatest potential for recovery.

I have 2 laminitics, a professional and an amateur if I can put it that way, and both are out of shoes and much better for it.

Barefoot, conformant supportive surfaces, great diet. Boots with pads are great.

Can I suggest that you maybe get in contact with one of the UKNHCP folks in your area and get a second opinion/review? Most of the UKNHCP trimmers are great with laminitics and can give you suitable foorcare advice and dietary advice.

I'll PM you my site, you can have a look at what my chronic lami gets up to.

 

[amandap]

Can I suggest that you maybe get in contact with one of the UKNHCP folks in your area and get a second opinion/review?

Mel and Ross Barker are in your area if you decide to get a second opinion for a different approach. http://www.right2remainshoeless.com/html/contact_us.html
I also recommend the Founder book by Jaime Jackson and other reading by him and Pete Ramey to get an idea of the thinking.

 

[madaboutollie]

Thanks for all your replies.

Unfortunately, for this particular horse barefoot is not an option due to his poor foot conformation - flat, very thin soles, low heels, frog close to floor. For him, shoes are usually a complete relief. I have read the 'Founder - Prevention and Cure' and have picked up some really great tips for caring for a founder case but again, the barefoot option cannot be done. I'm all for barefoot as I have an Irish Draught (5 years old) who has beautiful shoeless feet and have had no problems whatsoever with him but then again he has beautiful strong feet.

Has anyone had a success with Imprints with a heavier horse? My lad is 530Kg but is on a big diet to get to under 500Kg - limited hay, Happy Hoof, Formula 4 Feet.

All replies gratefully received as this is keeping me awake every night and I cant eat properly How much do we love our horses??

 

[taceann]

What about Imprint shoes ? Expensive but should be covered by insurance if you have it. You may only need them for a few weeks. Look up Andrew Poynton, he was the farrier who invented them. They are plastic but are sort of heat moulded onto the foot. Good luck x

 

[brucea]

Unfortunately, for this particular horse barefoot is not an option due to his poor foot conformation - flat, very thin soles, low heels, frog close to floor

Does the walker chose the path or the path the walker? Are his feet like that because he has shoes, and they are causing further damage, or does he need shoes because his feet are like that? I guess it depends which camp you are in.

This is precisely why you should be considering barefoot. Give Ross and Mel a call and chat with them. In the end of the day if you don't try it, then you'll never find out.

It's great his frog is close to the floor - that's what the frog is supposed to do - be the landing cusion and support the foot. If the frog's not on the floor the foot ain't working properly. The back of the frog should be the first thing your hoss lands on.

At one point my pony's feet were paper thin - I could flex the sole with my fingers. Now he has a good 20mm of sole and is out driving and doing stuff. Today he was out in the woods for 5 miles on rough tracks with a young lass who comes to ride him.

Taking the barefoot, non farrier, non conventional approach takes a certain courage to fly in the face of what you're being told to do. it does take time, and it does take patience.

You can't "fix" a laminitic hoof, you can only grow a better new hoof. You need to give that new hoof the best chance you can.

 

[Kallibear]

I'm of the 'take the shoes off' camp too. I've never seen shoes, remedial or not, do laminitic cases any good, only prolong the healing. And the strict adherance to 'must have shoes on' has caused quite a few horses I know to end up being PTS

The poor feet you describe are, as brucea said, caused by shoeing in the first place. You don't get that kind of damage in feet that haven't been shod.

I had a very laminitic shetland cross who had 15degrees of rotation. Vet wanted to put shoes on him very first thing they did, and said it would be unlikely they would every come completely right, and it would probably take at least a year for a partial heal. I made a fuss and went down the boots and pad route and within 3 months he was back in work. 6 months later his feet had grown out so perfectly you'd never even guess he'd foundered

 

[LucyPriory]

As the main carer you have to make a decision you (and your horse) can live with. Never easy during times of stress, and having a horse with laminitis is generally pretty stressful for all concerned.

But the only way to 'fix' laminitis is to resolve the causal factor. Shoes no matter how beautifully crafted and carefully put on will never do this.

I agree with the posters who advised reading Founder Prevention and Cure.

Also look at this little (ok not so little) guy - months in a box, shod, lame. Two weeks deshod, a bit of FPC and look at him go! Not the first by a very long chalk and he won't be the last.

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/12/which-one-has-laminitis.html

 

[mrdarcy]

Another big vote for getting the shoes off - his poor quality feet, thin soles, underun heels etc are all signs of feet not having coped with sugar content in diet for a while. It's commonly thought that laminitis happens suddenly but in actual fact it's a cumulative thing from years of a less than suitable diet. Like cholestoral in humans - someone eats burgers and fry ups for years, their arteries get more and more clogged as the years go by, even though they themselves feel healthy. Then one day they have a heart attack. The heart attack not being caused by the burger they had the night before, but from the years of unhealthy living. Laminitis is exactly the same. His lameness now is because of the inflammation in the feet. Remove the inflammation (finding the trigger is not always easy but remove from grass, soak hay, cut out all molassed hard feed, which includes many stamped approved by the laminitis trust), rebalance his system (use a product like Happy Tummy to remove toxins from his digestive system) and allow him to move. Once the inflammation goes soundness returns very quickly and the hooves can start to heal themselves.

 

[peanut]

My lovely gelding has thin, flat soles with low heels and I suspect he is not coping well with the pressure from the frog plate.

This is precisely why you should be considering barefoot. You can't "fix" a laminitic hoof, you can only grow a better new hoof. You need to give that new hoof the best chance you can.

Madabuotollie, my horse also has the flattest feet with paper thin soles, low frog and collapsed heels and we do endless battle with corns/lameness. Thankfully no lami.

Having read so much on here about barefoot, I mentioned the possibility to my vet and he was horrified. He said that my horse would be crippled without shoes and it would be cruel to take them off. I still haven't ruled it out but it hurt enormously to have it suggested that I could be cruel to my beloved horse.

I'm thinking of getting a second opinion on the barefoot. I hope you get your boy sorted.

 

[AmyMay]

You can't "fix" a laminitic hoof, you can only grow a better new hoof.

Laminitis is inflammation of the sensitive laminae, and the internal structures therein of the foot.

Growing a 'better new hoof' is totally oversimplifying the condition......

 

[LucyPriory]

Madabuotollie, my horse also has the flattest feet with paper thin soles, low frog and collapsed heels and we do endless battle with corns/lameness. Thankfully no lami.

Having read so much on here about barefoot, I mentioned the possibility to my vet and he was horrified. He said that my horse would be crippled without shoes and it would be cruel to take them off. I still haven't ruled it out but it hurt enormously to have it suggested that I could be cruel to my beloved horse.

I'm thinking of getting a second opinion on the barefoot. I hope you get your boy sorted.

I have been told by vets that thin soles are genetic. Horses aren't listening though and with a decent diet, barefoot and working the horses prove otherwise.

Use decent, well fitting boots for exercise during the transition phase, get good advice from an experienced barefooter.

 

[touchstone]

Laminitis is inflammation of the sensitive laminae, and the internal structures therein of the foot.

Growing a 'better new hoof' is totally oversimplifying the condition......

But that is how to heal a laminitic - remove the causative factor that creates the laminitis and then the hoof has a chance to grow normal lamellar attachments; the difficulty can be in finding the cause, but allowing the horse to 'detox' and watching for metabolic disorders means that you are halfway there once you can control the inflammation, if you don't control that you are never going to get a healthy hoof and no amount of shoeing can correct it. Laminitis is a complicated condition because it affects the whole horse.
I feel that supporting the pedal bone correctly is vital and allowing the hoof to function as it should and I found that no shoes was the right way for my horse. I also went against what veterinary professionals were saying, but when my vet next saw my (sound) horse he was very impressed with the result.
Of course it is up to the owner who has to make the final decision over which method to choose, but from personal experience, and seeing many horses not recover after the usual heartbar etc treatment, it is something I wish I had been aware of years before I discovered the benefits. It does complicate matters when there is so much conflicting advice available, and I can only recommend doing lots of your own research and what you feel is right; but to me the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and I wish the owner and horse well, whatever method they choose.

 

[amandap]

.

Having read so much on here about barefoot, I mentioned the possibility to my vet and he was horrified. He said that my horse would be crippled without shoes and it would be cruel to take them off. I still haven't ruled it out but it hurt enormously to have it suggested that I could be cruel to my beloved horse.

I'm thinking of getting a second opinion on the barefoot. I hope you get your boy sorted.

Do look into it and recommend Pete Rameys DVD series, 'Under the Horse' to your vet for a quick, graphic insight into barefoot thinking.
Have a good read of LucyPriories blog too, it's a great no nonsense resource.

Just to babble my non professional thinking. Once a hoof is compromised it needs time to heal and many horses hooves are greatly underdeveloped from restriction of movement, shoeing etc. So on top of mending any damage the hoof needs time and supported 'work' to grow stronger by developing internal structures. There are pads, boots to offer comfort, protection and support if needed but this process does not happen overnight. I believe it takes a hoof about the same time to fully develop as the horses skeleton 6-7 years ish. If a horse has been stabled a lot and shod continuously from an early age then hoof development has often been severely stunted. Correct and full functioning of the hoof (expansion, contraction, twisting etc.) is needed to build up the structures, casing it in a cast effectively hides symptoms but what does it do to actively strengthen a hoof structures such as digital cushion and lateral cartilages? What's that saying?... "Use it or loose it"

Sorry for babbling but I get cross with Vets who use cruelty as a whip to beat owners trying to do their best.

 

[mrdarcy]

Having read so much on here about barefoot, I mentioned the possibility to my vet and he was horrified. He said that my horse would be crippled without shoes and it would be cruel to take them off. I still haven't ruled it out but it hurt enormously to have it suggested that I could be cruel to my beloved horse.

That makes me so angry. How dare the vet make you feel like that. But you are not alone, believe me. I hear things like that so often. A client of mine has an IR mare who came down with lami during the cold snap. This mare had been lame for two years in heart bar shoes but had been sound all summer barefoot. Vet came out and said the mare would never, stress never, come sound unless she had heart bar shoes put on. My client resisted, not easy as the vet made her feel awful, but she said no. The mare stayed barefoot, was 100% sound within 5 days and was being ridden again within 10 days. All the vet said was 'I'm surprised'. And how did we get the mare sound again so quickly? The lami had been triggered by a combination of a different batch of hay (containign clover - a big no no) and because of the extreme cold my client had stopped soaking the hay too. Once we'd switched to a different batch of hay and started soaking again mare went sound.

Another example - another horse with lami over the cold snap. X-rays showed a very slight rotation - no big deal at all, but vet was offering to put the horse to sleep on the spot. At this stage the horse wasn't even lame anymore! This particular vet said that rotation meant the horse would never be able to be ridden again. What?!!!! Why on earth shouldn't he be ridden again?

Not all vets are so close minded but they tend to need to see barefoot working with their own eyes, which is fair enough I guess, as other than that all they have is what they've been taught at vet school. I just wish they'd read around the subject a bit more and when they do see barefoot working not just say things like 'I'm surprised' or 'you've been very lucky'. I had one vet tell me that no horse in the UK could work hard barefoot as they all get white line disease. This was as I was holding one of my barefoot endurance horses!

 

[AmyMay]

That makes me so angry. How dare the vet make you feel like that.

But it's what you barefoot advocates do all the time.........

 

[bensababy]

I too can second Bare Foot. I have a Laminitis sufferer, acute Laminitis in fronts. 7% rotation in each foot. Farrier is out every 6 weeks "reshaping", my boy also has soles so thin you can compress it with your thumb, i coat in Keratex and have the GMac boots which he wears when going from stable to field and exercise. I have tried several options with him - heart bars, clogs.. and none seem to keep him sound enough.

Edited to say he is not trimmed by a "Barefoot specialist" - my farrier is a genius.

 

[touchstone]

I advocate barefoot because it works - all I am doing is posting my experiences which benefitted my horse, at the end of the day people are saying what has worked for them and what failings they have seen with conventional methods - no one is being told they have to follow a certain method that is up to the indivudual at the end of the day, as I said in my previous post " I can only recommend doing lots of your own research and what you feel is right; but to me the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and I wish the owner and horse well, whatever method they choose."
My vet is actually quite supportive of barefoot now, I think that it would be good to see less closed mindedness over treatments rather than calling somebody outright cruel for wanting to try something when the conventional route hasn't worked.

 

[amandap]

I'm sorry you feel that way amymay.

I've been thinking, it's really a medical/veterinary model v an holistic model. Vets are taught in a very medical model way so it's hard for some to think in other ways from my understanding. This is changing but I do get so sad when I see pics of butchered hooves (done by vets,farriers or invasive trimmers) when a change of diet and management would allow the horse to grow a perfectly sound hoof that meets it's needs.

 

[bensababy]

I'm sorry you feel that way amymay.

I've been thinking, it's really a medical/veterinary model v an holistic model. Vets are taught in a very medical model way so it's hard for some to think in other ways from my understanding. This is changing but I do get so sad when I see pics of butchered hooves (done by vets,farriers or invasive trimmers) when a change of diet and management would allow the horse to grow a perfectly sound hoof that meets it's needs.

Can i ask, in your experience what would you recommend the perfect diet for a Cushings/Laminitis/thin soled 13.1 pony?

 

[mrdarcy]

But it's what you barefoot advocates do all the time.........

Do we? Examples please!

 

[amandap]

I don't consider myself quallified to give dietry advice beyond the basics I'm afraid. I have only personal experience of one laminitic pony and she isn't IR/cushings (yet).
I actually don't believe there is a 'perfect' diet as I've read many stories of people struggling with diets for IR/cushings horses, there is a huge individual aspect especially if specific sensitivities such as preservatives are involved.

Diet of mainly soaked rinsed hay, grass if tolerated outside danger times, spring, autumn, stress periods frost, drought etc. mineral supplementation according to forage analysis is the ideal, protein and amino acid supplementation might be required if the diet is only soaked hay. I always point peeps to metabolic horse site and Yahoo group for support from those with horses difficult to stabilize.
Exercise is also imo extremely important. Of course in an acute attack of laminitis this is not advisable but the horse can potter at his/her own pace if a supportive surface or pads are provided.

Mta. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/TheMetabolicHorse/
Jackie Taylor does a diet handout for laminitics.

 

[bensababy]

Exercise is also imo extremely important. Of course in an acute attack of laminitis this is not advisable but the horse can potter at his/her own pace if a supportive surface or pads are provided.

Mta. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/TheMetabolicHorse/
Jackie Taylor does a diet handout for laminitics.

Thank you that is useful. I am also glad you mentioned the exercise, my farrier rammed this home to me that he needs to be kept active as much as possible, i have started long reining in the school as a form of exercise for him, its tough to know how far to push them without causing any distress/pain.

 

[Clava]

Laminitis is inflammation of the sensitive laminae, and the internal structures therein of the foot.

Growing a 'better new hoof' is totally oversimplifying the condition......

...but it is the only answer. A new healthy hoof grown from a correct diet and movement.

I would never have shoes on a laminitic.

 

[mrdarcy]

Thank you that is useful. I am also glad you mentioned the exercise, my farrier rammed this home to me that he needs to be kept active as much as possible, i have started long reining in the school as a form of exercise for him, its tough to know how far to push them without causing any distress/pain.

Exercise is crucial - for stimulation and aiding circulation in the feet and for helping to burn off calories. The horse will let you know how much they can cope with - you really just have to play it by ear and the situation can change day on day. I agree there isn't a perfect, fits all, diet, as all are different. Some can tolerate no grass whatsoever, others are not so extreme. In my ideal world I would have completely grass free fields - but until I move to Arizona I have to make do, like we all do, and manage with what we've got.

 

[quirky]

It's asking somebody to take a massive leap of faith in taking shoes off a laminitic.

I had a laminitic who when his shoes were taken off was in so much pain he wouldn't eat, he stood up rarely and was generally a very, very unhappy pony. We tried frog supports (the rubber ones) but still he wouldn't stand/eat. It was absolutely heart breaking to see and I lost many a nights sleep fretting over that pony .
I was lucky, we got him on his feet long enough to have Imprints and filler in. This support was enough for him to turn the corner and he was on the road to a slow recovery.

He came back fully into work and I lost him to an altogether different condition.

So, Barefooters, how can you honestly tell somebody to their pony's shoes off when she has already said he won't/can't cope ?