ADVICE PLEASE ..IM BEEN CONNED !!

Mine are pets too. I turned down very good money for my 14.2, from homes I trusted, because she's my pet. I won't be selling my daughters pony when she's outgrown either, despite the fact she'll only be 7/8. But I won't try & guilt trip the op as the situation is completely different.
 
Crugeran Celt said:
I am obviously in the minority here but my horses are no different to my dogs or cats and are pets. Some people find themselves in financial difficulties after they have had a horse for many years and have to then sell or possibly pts but surely before buying any animal the person must know if they can afford that animal should the worst happen. I paid rather a large amount for a welsh sect d four years ago and had him 5* vetted, a week after I bought him he slipped and fell whilst out riding and was lame. The farrier was coming that afternoon and looked at him for me and suggested that his riding days may be over. At no point did I think of selling or pts I knew he would be kept as a field ornament. Luckily for me he made a full recovery and is completely sound and healthy. My point is is that I had bought him therefore he is my responsibility to care for to the best of my ability come what may and if that means owning a field ornament so be it.
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I understand you, really, i do, i have a 28 yo field ornament who gave me years of great riding and happiness and a 16 yo diagnosed at rising 5 with djd, who i bought as a 2 yo who hardly turned a hoof, both cost me a fortune over the years but the difference is we have a history, the op has no history with this horse and imo is no more morally obliged to keep it probably at great cost than you or I . Yes she has a responsibility to it now and part of this may be to decide pts is the better option than selling on
 
I agree that she must decide for herself what is best for the horse and I am really not anti pts if that is in the best interest of the animal and I also agree that it would be better to do that now than put the poor animal through sale after sale until evenutually he would end up in the meat market. I appreciate that I am very fortunate to have the facilities to keep my field ornaments and a horse to ride.

Again I wish op all the best whatever her decision.
 
Crugeran Celt said:
No wonder that so many horses are just passed from home to home and end up in a tin! Some of the lucky ones end up being kept just to give them a good for ever home and expect nothing in return. I am so glad that I don't have your attitude. The mistake in buying him has been made and he now needs looking after or he will just be another horse that gets destroyed because he doesn't fit what us humans see as perfect. How sad is that!
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people see it differently. would you keep a dog going that was lame and having breathing problems, if it was going to cost you hundrends a year. and of course the animal was in pain? no of course you wouldnt.

its not sad its reality.
 
There is a reason for the saying 'buyer beware' and this is it.
Those considering buying at auction really do need to know what they are doing and those buying outside the ring should be doubly careful.

I haven't read the whole thread, so apologise if a troll has been dragged out from under the bridge previously.
 
I am not an AI, have not a paper qualifcation to my name but anyone who buys at auction unless its one of the top ones knows never to take anything at face value. The horse is there for a reason and its up to you to either have the knowledge to know or ask the right questions and listen to what they DO NOT say.
When you buy this sort of horse unless its got a good varifiable comp history, a good vender will have this printed out, a fullpassport with some sort of a traceable history not minted that day, should be cheap, meaning a few hundred pounds off meat money.
If this person is not a troll I can not really feel sorry for them as they seem to have left their brain at home and god knows what they are teaching, as I suppose they would be classed as a knowledgable proffessional.
The first rule of buying at auction is read the terms and conditions, they may be in small print but they will be in the catalogue. Normally sales outside the ring are not covered by the conditions of sale unless commision is paid. Why do you think the dealers like to sell them this way?
If a horse does not sell in the ring its usually over priced for that market, and some horses trail round several auctions before being sold. If you like a horse that doesn't sell by all means follow it out, find out what they want for it and then treat it as a normal viewing and try the d*m thing properly because you are going to pay above auction price for it. If the vender doesn't like it their not going to get your money.
If you buy a horse through the ring and it has a reserve it will be covered by the auctioneers terms and conditions which depending on the value may give you 24-48 hours to have it vetted and find out its vices then you may have a chance of getting your money back as its discription must match the catalogue.
I have been going to auctions for years and only ever bought one which I paid meat money for, it was a lovely horse just in the wrong place at the wrong time. My top tip would be never bid or buy more than you can afford to lose.
 
Good advice Honetpot. I too don't have my AI! I would have thought anyone going to the bother of getting this qualification would have learnt NEVER to trust anybody 100% when money and horses are involved.
As regards any come back, forget it, as if a legal path is followed, the only person who will benefit will be the lawyer. I'm not a lawyer either but I do know the phrase "buyer beware" and that's the rule the OP forgot.
 
So...when did it become 'ok' to be taken advantage of, sold a dud, lied to or have any dodgy dealings 'excused' as being almost normal and blame being placed at the feet of the buyer? The OP didn't actually do anything wrong - maybe a bit naive in believing someone she knew, maybe bad judgement in not getting a vetting etc etc but she didn't actually do anything morally or legally wrong... The seller may well have done so but an almost "ha ha, silly OP, your own fault, just kiss £3k goodbye"... :confused: :rolleyes:

magoodle said:
horse was not sold in car park ,vendor delivered the horse to my yard ,where deal was done
<snip>
auctioneers were very helpful ,contacted trading standards for me and couldnt of been nicer as had problems with vendor before
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Yes, but it was the auction that put you together - he didn't bring the horse to your yard by accident as part of a day trip... If the auctioneers have had trouble with the vendor before, maybe that indicates he could be deemed a dealer... Arguably, the sale was generated by the auction but I guess it depends on the wording of their T&Cs...

Getting taken in by someone you feel you know isn't pleasant... I hope you're able to gain some legal recourse but primarily, you are able to pick the right path wrt the horse's future...
 
Ew that was going to be my post! ;) OP if the seller has sold 3 or more horses in the last 12 months then it is not a private seller it is a dealer and you may well have comeback. Write to vendor recorded delivery stating that you wish to return horse and your reasons for this and as Ew says google number. Good luck
 
OP - did you try the horse out when the seller brought it to your yard? And do you have anything in writing to say the horse was sound in wind, leg etc? Like the auction guide (though strictly speaking that's only valid for the day of the sale, not thereafter)

I don't see that the Auctioneers have anything to do with the sale if the 'deal' was done at your yard.

But.... I still think that you do have a 'leg to stand on', whether the seller is a dealer or private person.

You'll could try to sue the seller through the Small Claims Court - I don't think you need to hire a solicitor for this. The issue might be that you didn't actually ride/try the horse nor get it vetted, and that might be your downfall to successfully suing.

I know of 2 people who have sued or been sued, and on both occasions the horse was OK when the buyer tried it, and the seller said it was 100% in all ways - and it wasn't. One was a private sale and one was a dealer (who tried to make out he wasn't a dealer, but it was proved he was!!)

Also, if you sue, and are successful, are you going to give the horse back or will you want to keep it and try to mend it?

(I'd be inclined to get Freezemark to mark it with the 'L' Loss of Use mark, so that the dealer can't sell the horse on to another unsuspecting person - though I don't suppose this is possible to do??)
 
This is what happens I'm afraid when someone that is inexperienced with auctio buying does so.

I'm afriad you have to deal with it now and do what's best for the horse.
 
BBW said:
NO you have NOT been conned, you bought a horse outside the ring, More Fool You. Said horse is fooked, kindest thing is PTS. Am I heartless, no just realistic and can't abide people who think that keeping horses going, despite what may be wrong with them, is right. Put horse out of its misery and don't been so trusting next time.
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Amazing isn't it ? So many experts on here that can diagnose the severity, possible prognosis and treatment costs of a horse without seeing it.

Throwaway horses in a society where nothing is valued.
 
BBW said:
NO you have NOT been conned, you bought a horse outside the ring, More Fool You. Said horse is fooked, kindest thing is PTS. Am I heartless, no just realistic and can't abide people who think that keeping horses going, despite what may be wrong with them, is right. Put horse out of its misery and don't been so trusting next time.
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So vendor describes said horse as "good in traffic ,done everything ie xc,sj and dressage" and "genuine ,good in traffic ,and sound ,no previous lameness issues"... Takes £3k from an acquaintance for the horse which then turns out not to be good in traffic but also, according to the vet, is unsound, probably has arthritic implications in the hocks with a knock on effect and isn't fit for purpose... If the OP's story is correct, the seller has fibbed through his teeth, palmed off an unfit horse, taken £3k and run... But that's all ok, the OP hasn't been conned and it's all her fault...
 
Ladydragon said:
So vendor describes said horse as "good in traffic ,done everything ie xc,sj and dressage" and "genuine ,good in traffic ,and sound ,no previous lameness issues"... Takes £3k from an acquaintance for the horse which then turns out not to be good in traffic but also, according to the vet, is unsound, probably has arthritic implications in the hocks with a knock on effect and isn't fit for purpose... If the OP's story is correct, the seller has fibbed through his teeth, palmed off an unfit horse, taken £3k and run... But that's all ok, the OP hasn't been conned and it's all her fault...
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I'm afraid that it IS her fault. She has no record of anything that the vendor said because the horse was not sold through the ring, therefore even if the auction was a sale of warranted horses, this horse is not covered by the terms and conditions of the sale.
I really cannot understand why a knowledgeable AI would pay £3000 for a horse which was unsold at an auction without trying it in at least some of the circumstances that she wanted it for, nor can I understand how a knowledgeable AI couldn't spot an unsound horse - unless, of course, the horse had been given bute prior to the sale - but then if the horse had been bought through a warranted sale............
As I said previously, when buying at auction (which is what OP presumably intended to do), it is very much a case of 'buyer beware' and when buying outside the ring and thus falling outside the protection of the auctioneer the buyer needs to be doubly careful.
But then, I'd have expected that a knowledgeable AI would know that!
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I'm afraid that it IS her fault.
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I can't agree... Naive, maybe a bad judge of character, perhaps foolish... But she didn't force him to misrepresent his horse... She gave someone she knows the presumption of honesty and they chose to tell a fairy story... It wasn't some random seller she'd never seen/spoken to before...

Fundamentally, she did nothing wrong... To blame her is pretty much saying it's perfectly ok for sellers to act in a legally or morally reprehensible manner... Is it really acceptable to hold sellers to that low a standard?
 
Firstly, sadly these things do happen at sales, dealers knock horses out all the time, often putting them through the ring with high reserves so that they sell outside and aren't covered by the warrenty.
You say you know this person, does he sell horses often? If so he would definatly be classed as a dealer, and you would have come back.
The description of the horse in the catalogue would be classed as an advert, and your receipt would also be evidence.
Even if it is a private sale then these two things will help you.
On another point, quite how the fact that you are an AI means you should be able to tell the horse is sound only because he is buted up to the eyeballs I don't know!
I feel very sorry for you, especially as this is someone you know, but trust no one is the caveat here.
 
The OP says she has spoken to the auctioneers "who have had problems with this seller before". I think I would be doing more research on that. Who else would have dealings with this character? Some good suggestions in previous posts. The auctioneers will be careful in what they say as they will have no wish to risk an action for defamation or lose a customer (even a bad one!).

So I'd try to find out about the "problems" with possibly the names and addresses of purchasers. Basically, build a case. Ever seen "Rogue Traders" on TV? That's exactly what they do, then they expose the culprit and leave it to the authorities to follow up. The threat of exposure might be enough.

When you have the evidence, write a nice polite letter to the dealer (because a dealer he undoubtedly is!) and suggest that he might like to take the horse back and give you a full refund as your friend, who just happens to be a journalist, is very interested in publishing the story -- but you'd prefer not to have the publicity. In similar circumstances, I have occasionally mentioned that I'm a journalist and doing a story for The Times (or whatever) but felt it only fair to give them, the cheat, a chance to put matters right. Anyone can call themselves a journalist and there is no guarantee that The Times will publish what you've written anyway -- so that's a white lie but it could work. It's worked for me on several occasions, but don't tell anyone!:D
 
Utterly amazed at the hard line some posters are taking. The AI came about because someone suggested the poster take riding lessons. It is very easy to bute up a horse so it appears sound & even dealers have been conned before now. IMO she has every right to check out her options as he may well be a dealer & therefore some comeback.
Not every horse/pony is at the sales for a “reason” that is anything but kosher . It happens to be one of the quickest & to some extent less stressful ways of selling. Bloodstock sales have been running for years, no one bats an eye. Brightwells run performance sales, sales for Welsh ponies, TB’s, Standardbreds, NPS Sales, Shetlands, etc.
As far as I am aware we do not know yet what the poster has in writing, we do know she was conned. It is all very well saying buyer be aware, but there are still laws in place to protect the consumer.
Putting to sleep a horse that you have no emotional attachment to that is lame & therefore possibly in pain, is going to cost a fortune in vets bills which you did not anticipate (if this had happened further down the line, chances are the horse would have been insured by then) is not part of the throwaway society. Sometimes you have to be practical it is better than palming the horse off onto someone else & the charities are bursting at the seams so they won’t take him.
For the future there is a simple test you can do when buying at a sale. Take a lunge line with you & after seeing the pony/horse trot up & down see it trotted on a circle on flat hard ground. If it is buted up it can still be difficult to detect, but it has been known to show up a horse/pony that is un-level.
 
Dry Rot said:
The OP says she has spoken to the auctioneers "who have had problems with this seller before". I think I would be doing more research on that. Who else would have dealings with this character? Some good suggestions in previous posts. The auctioneers will be careful in what they say as they will have no wish to risk an action for defamation or lose a customer (even a bad one!).

So I'd try to find out about the "problems" with possibly the names and addresses of purchasers. Basically, build a case. Ever seen "Rogue Traders" on TV? That's exactly what they do, then they expose the culprit and leave it to the authorities to follow up. The threat of exposure might be enough.

When you have the evidence, write a nice polite letter to the dealer (because a dealer he undoubtedly is!) and suggest that he might like to take the horse back and give you a full refund as your friend, who just happens to be a journalist, is very interested in publishing the story -- but you'd prefer not to have the publicity. In similar circumstances, I have occasionally mentioned that I'm a journalist and doing a story for The Times (or whatever) but felt it only fair to give them, the cheat, a chance to put matters right. Anyone can call themselves a journalist and there is no guarantee that The Times will publish what you've written anyway -- so that's a white lie but it could work. It's worked for me on several occasions, but don't tell anyone!:D
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Good thinking, I agree OP was foolish, but in court she has a vet's report showing long term pre-existing condition, court would know that she would not pay for such a horse if vendor had been truthful. Make sure you write to him and tell him he is liable for all costs, including livery, vet and farrier costs.
What about the passport, did he sign it over to OP?
 
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Could I just point out that the only real " crime" the OP wa guilty of was actually taking the word of someone she knew of at face value and believing them.

I read the first post and and immediately thought pretty much the same as everyone else. Then thought again and realised the reason why I am a hardened and cynical person is.....as a direct result of people like the OP sharing their horror stories.

While OP may struggle to get her money back, she can do a lot to make this vendors life unpleasant in terms of reporting locally and warnig other people.
 
OP - I am truly sorry this has happened to you and that some of the people on this forum cannot be sympathetic and simply take this opportunity to have a pop....once again its an example of people on this forum having a look for threads where they can simply have a go...I think its appalling...really sickening.

Haven't any of you got a heart? why are you intent on making the OP feel worse?

Truly upset by this, OP I think most people would sympathise but they are perhaps worried to comment for fear of being told how stupid we are!
 
I would be wary of going down the route of sending a letter saying "if you don't take the horse back I'll publish an article in the press/ go to trading standards but if you give me a refund/take it back I won't" Surely that's blackmail? (Apologies if I'm wrong, have a bit of a dodgy head from wine last night :( )
 
Parker79 said:
OP - I am truly sorry this has happened to you and that some of the people on this forum cannot be sympathetic and simply take this opportunity to have a pop....once again its an example of people on this forum having a look for threads where they can simply have a go...I think its appalling...really sickening.

Haven't any of you got a heart? why are you intent on making the OP feel worse?

Truly upset by this, OP I think most people would sympathise but they are perhaps worried to comment for fear of being told how stupid we are!
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Out of all the replies the op has had only a few blunt ones,so i dont agree with this comment, most have simply stated she made a classic error in the way she bought, and will struggle to get her money back, thats not having a go, thats answering her post.
 
Put it in writing, ask for a reply within 7 days and sent by recorded delivery. If you don't hear back go to the small claims court. It only cost around £200. I do have experience of this when I was taken to court. All said it's a case of buyer beware but on the day that mean't nothing.
 
Crugeran Celt said:
I am obviously in the minority here but my horses are no different to my dogs or cats and are pets. Some people find themselves in financial difficulties after they have had a horse for many years and have to then sell or possibly pts but surely before buying any animal the person must know if they can afford that animal should the worst happen. I paid rather a large amount for a welsh sect d four years ago and had him 5* vetted, a week after I bought him he slipped and fell whilst out riding and was lame. The farrier was coming that afternoon and looked at him for me and suggested that his riding days may be over. At no point did I think of selling or pts I knew he would be kept as a field ornament. Luckily for me he made a full recovery and is completely sound and healthy. My point is is that I had bought him therefore he is my responsibility to care for to the best of my ability come what may and if that means owning a field ornament so be it.
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Completely agree.
 
BBW said:
NO you have NOT been conned, you bought a horse outside the ring, More Fool You. Said horse is fooked, kindest thing is PTS. Am I heartless, no just realistic and can't abide people who think that keeping horses going, despite what may be wrong with them, is right. Put horse out of its misery and don't been so trusting next time.
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Wow! You are clever. You are able to diagnose a horse and recommend PTS witthout even seeing it. :rolleyes:
 
i dont feel sorry for anyone who buys a horse for 3k on sight alone.

maybe i'm a typical "tight scot" but no money would leave my hand unless i had at least handled, and ridden the horse, let alone had it vetted (for 3k- possibly wouldn't vet if the horse was going very cheaply)

personally i would never buy a horse from auction- i don't have the money to gamble with.

if the OP had in fact ridden or vetted the horse to find out that it was doped up to the eyeballs, then Yes, i feel sorry for you, but otherwise, you took a gamble and lost. a hard lesson learned.

a fool and his money are easily parted... i wouldnt buy a car for 3k without having a mechanic look at it- same applies with horses!

i hope the horse comes right without too much financial hardship, and of course, if you can get some money back then great. good luck.
 
Sorry OP, I cannot give you any constructive advice. The best advice on here has been to try to prove this person is a dealer and you may have some come back.

I am also sorry that you have had to endure the juvenile comments of some of the posters on this thread. It really is like being in the school playground at times.
 
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